Club Data vs Ball Data?

[bubba22]

Thought I would start a thread on what's more important to the average golfer, club data or ball data given both beign accurate. Understanding that the gold standard is having both but if one had to chose, which would be prefered? This certainly is a debate which would be different for clubfitters, swing teaching pros and the average golfer. What do you guys like and why?

[ZMax]

If this average golfer wants to improve his swing, he'll want club data. I've seen so many average golfers on the range hitting buckets and buckets of balls with the same crappy swing and the same crappy result.

[kwantfm]

My preference is for club data as I intend to work on my swing. I feel that if I can get a consistent in-to-out path of 2* and face open 1* to target that everything else will work itself out.

Ball data is a bonus that will allow for driver optimisation and club gapping (especially wedges).

[northgolf]

I want ball data. If I know where the ball goes, I can figure out the impact dynamics and my club path.

On the course you have one feedback mechanism: the ball's flight. If you know how to diagnose from the ball's flight, you can fix yourself on the course.

One major problem I have with club data is you rely on the calculations that are used to simulate the ball flight and I don't trust those to accurately reflect reality.

The only piece of club data I'd find useful is the clubhead speed - it would be nice to be able to calculate smash factor.

[CPA]

Agree with northgolf. In trying to improve need to be able to do corrections on the course. Think there is more to it than raw swing path and clubface at impact, need 3d swing data and video and a COACH to fix a swing.

1 vote for ball data.

[bubba22]

3D swing data and video are essentially club data. For me that as well as knowing my swing path and face angle are critical. Again everyone is different, that is why I ask the question. When I switch drivers ( seems like every year thanks to Taylormade) I always go on a launch monitor to get that critical ball data, namely ball speed, launch and spin. So for me club data (including 3D or video) is important for maintaining my swing and ball data is important for fitting and getting as much out of my equipment.

[psace]

I would want ball data most of the time but occasionally club data especially if I am having major problems.

[ZMax]

You have to chose one or the other psace. But I know what you mean. Most of the time when I'm playing a round on the Protee, I just leave the analysis screen off to speed this up. I only turn it on when I'm on the virtual range working on my swing.

Once we get and affordable ball spin option, either from Protee, GGS, or whoever, there would be no need for these types of debates.

[psace]

Ok Z, it's ball data.

[HRS]

Ball data absolutely. I've used club only machines like Optishot. All my shots appeared awesome. Then I hit balls at the range and they all were horrible. Suppose you want to compare balls or clubs? Need ball data. And from that you can figure what you're doing wrong with the swing.

[bubba22]

Let's keep the comparison with accurate club analyzers such as Trackman, Flightscope, ProTee etc not Optishot. Let's assume the data, video etc of the swing is accurate for the comparison.

[ZMax]

Bubba22,

How about a thread where we post about how we use whatever sim/LM we have to improve our swing and lower our scores? The choice between ball or club data is usually based how much one can afford. If money was not an issue, we would all have both.

[bubba22]

Good question Z. Go ahead and start the thread asking that question.

[HRS]

In that case it probably would still be ball data. Assuming club position, speed and angle (as well as changes in these as it passes through the measuring area) can be measured correctly, my impression is that the exact physics of how balls get sent in the air are still somewhat controversial. Dynamic angle, gear effect, etc. There is a lot of modeling to determine the effect on the ball and, as evidenced in the thread about the HMT data, there is debate over the models. [I am in no way an expert in this and maybe there is actually broad consensus on the physics that I've missed] Of course a ball data sensor still makes calculations and assumptions about what happens after the few inches it tracks but the club sensor calculates that and what the initial ball flight would be.

[Frans@france]

I want ball data. If I know where the ball goes, I can figure out the impact dynamics and my club path.
On the course you have one feedback mechanism: the ball's flight. If you know how to diagnose from the ball's flight, you can fix yourself on the course.

You can not use the ball flight to back trace the clubdata. Best example I can give is a straight shot : There a 3 different impact ways to hit a dead straight shot. Hard to correct your error if you do not know which of those three you are dealing with.

One major problem I have with club data is you rely on the calculations that are used to simulate the ball flight and I don't trust those to accurately reflect reality.

only certain clubdata parameters are calculated. It depends on the system which parameters are calculated.

The only piece of club data I'd find useful is the clubhead speed - it would be nice to be able to calculate smash factor.

clubhead speed is hard to get correct. Toe and Heel move at different speeds making a correct measurement of the speed of the clubhead at impact point hard. The smash factor is sensitive for that error.

[Frans@france]

my impression is that the exact physics of how balls get sent in the air are still somewhat controversial. .

Not really.

[syhlif32]

For a golf simulation you only need ball data.
If we talk about improving your golf game I would say hands down club data.
Most important factor in the golf swing is hitting the ball in the center of the club face. You can use impact tape but that is a pain in the ...
For me using the simulator indoors using limited flight balls it is the club data that is the most important.

Like Zmax I shake my head of people endlessly hitting balls on the drive range without changing anything. They do it because they can't figure out from the ball data what they do wrong with the club.

[wbealsd]

syhlif32, that may be true of far too many golfers (hackers) and I tend to think most folks that just go to the range to "hit balls" probably fall into that group. That said, I think the folks that frequent this forum are approaching the game at a different level.

Is there really anybody that's a regular on this forum that doesn't use their "sim golf" to improve their "real golf"? I don't think so.

When I had the opportunity to purchase a GC2 at far less that cost, I went for it. I use a spray to determine club impact and the data provided by a launch monitor will help me use the most appropriate equipment to maximize my game. At my age (60 in 2 months) I'll use that data to ensure I'm using the equipment that's appropriate for me.

That said, I'd love to have accurate club data, but that's number 2 for me, since I think I can get that data by marking the clubface and then comparing actual ball flight.

The bottom line, from my perspective, is knowing where the ball goes. I will, and can adjust accordingly, if I know that.

[northgolf]

You can not use the ball flight to back trace the clubdata. Best example I can give is a straight shot : There a 3 different impact ways to hit a dead straight shot. Hard to correct your error if you do not know which of those three you are dealing with.

Statements like that are why I don't trust calculated ball flights.

There is only one way to hit a dead straight shot - the clubface must be square to the path. Please share any other way you believe is it possible to hit a dead straight shot.

[bubba22]

Northgolf, this is what Frans is talking about http://www.trackman.dk/download/news...ewsletter4.pdf

[Frans@france]

Northgolf, this is what Frans is talking about http://www.trackman.dk/download/news...ewsletter4.pdf

Correct : page 4, table 1. Gear effect on non-centre hits.

[northgolf]

Bubba,

Thanks. The gear effect used for the second and third methods of hitting a straight shot require an off center hit; that is, a mis hits. This is reflected in lower ball speed (ball data). I am fairly aware of off center hits, but I play blades and I have practiced with impact tape on my woods. I don't consider methods two and three of straight shots anything but mis hits, just as I consider fat and thin shots mis hits.

To be able to calculate the second and third methods of straight shots from club data, you would have to know where the COG of the club is located - this can be difficult to ascertain as most iron manufacturers will use tip weights in the shaft to achieve specific swing weights. In woods, you have the complication of knowing the club's bulge as well (not to mention TM and their moveable weights).

All that said, the first piece of club data I would be interested in after all ball data is clubhead speed - that gets you smash factor...

[Frans@france]

The gear effect used for the second and third methods of hitting a straight shot require an off center hit; that is, a mis hits. This is reflected in lower ball speed (ball data).

but the discussion was about getting feedback from ball flight. Those "mis hits" proves that point. I can give you way more examples with the driver and the irons.

And no there is no lower ball speed when hitting it of the TOE because that part of the club moves faster then the sweetspot.

[northgolf]

frans,

No, those mis hits prove my point, the mis hits might go straight but they fall short.

BTW, the ball speed is lower on toe hits - check the fourth row of table 1 on page 4 - carry distance = medium for toe hits compared to longest for center hit. If they had the same ball speed, they would carry the same distance.

[bubba22]

Ball data seems to work for you northgolf. I think getting club swing information from ball data is difficult. Perhaps for more experienced or better players they can use the ball data for swing changes. I do think that knowing club data can help establish whet the ball can do, and equipment like the Trakman has greatly helped in that understanding.

[northgolf]

Bubba,

Don't get me wrong - I'd love some club data to go along with the ball data. I only opt for ball data if I can have only one.

I think you are right about the experience as well. I've been playing a long time and I am a solid single digit handicap player. If I was just learning, then I'd want the club data.

[bubba22]

I play to a low single digit as well. Like I said I like the ball data for my club tweaking (mostly the driver) and the club data for my swing tweaking.

[Frans@france]

To answer the original question:

I only care about clubdata. Every fitting or swing change is based on club data. Not a single one is based on ball data except maybe gap analysis and ball fitting

Almost all golfers I see both beginners and single digit players are wrong about their swing data. Have a look at the P3Pro thread and see how people react when that machine tells them their swing direction is like 12 degrees outside-in They will even build some machines to check the P3Pro because they are sure it's wrong

Then tell them to change that swing and try to come inside. Look at the club data and their suprise that they are still outside but now only opened the face more!

-- Ball flight can be seen, club data can not. So if I would ever to have to make a choice between the two let it be that part that I can not see or even guess...club data

[Frans@france]

frans,

No, those mis hits prove my point, the mis hits might go straight but they fall short.

Yes, and so will a shot which has just a bit more dync. loft or a bit less speed or a tad more spin or lower Angel of Attack, etc.... Ball flight will not tell which parameter created that shorter flight.

BTW, the ball speed is lower on toe hits - check the fourth row of table 1 on page 4 - carry distance = medium for toe hits compared to longest for center hit. If they had the same ball speed, they would carry the same distance.

Correct, a 0.5 inch miss will generate (on average) -3mph less ball speed and around 200 rpm more. However will you hit every shot at exactly the same distance and therefore recognize that 6 yard shorter straight shot being a 0.5 inch mis hit?

----I'm happy with you picking ball before club but I only wanted to make the statement that you can have all kinds a impact data that generate the same ball flight. If you disagree with that then we have no discussion and we disagree on the validaty of the D-Plane.

[wbealsd]

And yet, Golf is not a game of perfect, nor will it ever be.