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Thread: English Mandatory on the LPGA
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08-26-2008 09:48 PM #61
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08-26-2008 09:50 PM #62
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08-26-2008 09:56 PM #63
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08-26-2008 09:57 PM #64
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08-26-2008 10:07 PM #65
I can't think of another woman's sport that has any economic viability.(tennis?) ie can pay its own bills. Other pro sports, MEN's sports, do not need athletes to be as accessible and communicate to the public to stay afloat.
The LPGA could continue to exist without insisting players be marketers, But not in its current form. As crass as it sounds you could say the LPGA is stating "If you want to play for $$ on our tour you need to be part of the $$ making process" and that extends to off course activities when it comes to the LPGA business model.
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08-26-2008 10:10 PM #66
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08-26-2008 10:11 PM #67I'll speak slowly. They... are... both... cases... of... clear... cut... discrimination.
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08-26-2008 10:18 PM #68When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.
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08-26-2008 10:28 PM #69
The Martin decision was all about how the American's with Disabilities Act REQUIRES a leveling of the playing field for the handicapped, even in pro sports.
I don't see the LPGA issue as so cut and dried.
I also don't know, and this is a serious question, not intended to but do foreign players have the same claims under the US Constitution as American players do? Asking foreign "workers" to speak English in the US doesn't really seem like a stretch to me
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08-26-2008 10:34 PM #70
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08-26-2008 11:41 PM #71
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None of us has the "right" to work for a particular employer or compel them to hire us. However, we all have the right to be treated equally and fairly - without discrimination based on several factors including ethnic origin - when we apply for a job with that employer. Those "human rights" supercede all others.
There is no doubt that proficiency in English is a desirable asset for an LPGA player - or any professional athlete for that matter. But if the LPGA gets sued over this policy (and they probably will), they'll need to show that proficiency in English is not just desirable but necessary. I think they'll have a difficult time with that.
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08-26-2008 11:56 PM #72
I don't get why you've bolded those two words...or how that proves that the policy is ethnically based. The tour held a meeting, presumably with translators, in order to ensure that the parties who would be effected would have a full understanding of the policy. Damn...now THAT is discrimination.
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08-26-2008 11:59 PM #73
As I outlined earlier, spoken language is NOT in fact necessarily included under racial/ethnic discrimination. In fact, given that the LPGA will continue to have many players of varying ethnicities once this policy is in place (those who know, or learn english), there is nothing in the policy that is specifially racial or ethnic in nature. PERIOD.
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08-27-2008 12:00 AM #74
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08-27-2008 12:05 AM #75
Well, reading the American excerpt, I have 2 observations: Nobody is being discriminated against for using their native language...they are being punished for the inability to use english. Legally, the difference is huge. "characteristics having to do with that language" presumably refers to accent and diction which does not apply in this case...the LPGA isn't threatening to drop golfers with accents.
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08-27-2008 12:07 AM #76
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08-27-2008 06:36 AM #77
Lorne Rubenstein has a thoughtful critique of the LPGA's position in this morning's Globe and Mail. One of the points he makes is that this tour is not solely an American tour. Events are staged in Canada, Singapore, Mexico, France, England, South Korea and Japan.
Here's the link to his commentary: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...portsGolf/home
Can anyone explain why the Tour's commissioner would not be the front and centre spokesperson on this issue? She has been AWOL. Also, why would Tour officials announce the policy to the Korean players, and then leave it to the press to advise the rest of the membership. This entire exercise has been mishandled from its conception to its execution.
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08-27-2008 09:22 AM #78
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No, the fact is that employers DO NOT have the right to make whatever business decisions they deem appropriate regarding hiring practices or employee working conditions. Human rights codes and labour relations laws have been in place for decades, and they supercede whatever rules a company might think is necessary for them to be successful.
This is 2008. The days when a company could make up whatever rules they wanted for their employees ended a long, long time ago.
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08-27-2008 09:32 AM #79
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Ummm, a little late to the thread, but, they aren't being asked to leave immediately. They have until the end of next season to learn rudimentary conversational English. Having taught English abroad for 3 years, a year of casual conversation classes will get everyone up to a certain level to say something like "I rike to pray gorf on LPGA tour." (tongue planted firmly in cheek) C'mom, if Mr Miyagi from the Karate Kid could teach Ralph Macchio to fight with his broken English, I'm sure that the golfers will be fine.
On a side note, having worked in Asia for a while, I couldn't imagine living abroad without making an attempt to learn the local language. It is insulting to the country to expect to speak English. Having said that, it would be nice if the same was true but in reverse.
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08-27-2008 09:36 AM #80
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Your broad strokes are invalid to this case. It's easy for the LPGA to prove that English is necessary for the players to fulfill their responsibilities (again, for those who choose not to read or hear other arguments, please see PRO AMS). That is the only concern here.
Your argument above makes it seem like an employer has to, for example, consider hiring a person who only speaks Chinese in a Canadian-based callcenter that services the golfing public in Canada only. That is illogical, and wouldn't stand a chance if brought before a court.
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08-27-2008 09:45 AM #81
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The players are paid by the sponsors. The money they win is supplied by the sponsors. The sponsors want the players to deal with the media and the media deals in English.
If the players don't want to speak English, they can find a tour that exists where the primary language is their own.
If no LPGA players speak English, do you really think the LPGA will get sponsors?
I am pretty sure NIKE asks all of its athletes to be able to speak some English for marketing reasons.
The LPGA is asking all of its golfers to be able to speak some English for marketing reasons.
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08-27-2008 11:22 AM #82
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If you allow your clients to choose your employees, you've lost control of your business. I understand the difficulty for the LPGA if they're facing that pressure, but their response is waaaay over-the-top. And in my view it says as much about the sponsors as it does about the athletes themselves. If I was a CEO that had the chance to play golf with an LPGA pro, having to use an interpreter to talk to them is a minor inconvenience (if that was even necessary).
If they were asking, we wouldn't be having this debate. The problem is that they're not asking - they're demanding.
If the LPGA was simply raising the issue and taking positive steps to encourage South Koreans to learn English - instead of imposing sanctions, deadlines and ultimatums - they wouldn't be in the middle of the PR nightmare they're in. If they already had ESL programs in place and/or provided resources to their players to help them learn English and these sanctions were a "last resort" for those who refused to accommodate them, there would be a lot less resistance. Instead, they're being heavy-handed and dictatorial.
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08-27-2008 12:17 PM #83
I think a lot of folks are making an assumption and it is an assumption that I believe is wrong.........we all seem to be assuming that the members of the LPGA are employees - I don't believe this is the case. Hockey players are employees of their respective clubs as are football, basketball and soccer players. I don't think this is the case in golf.
The Human Rights issue still stands but all of the employer/employee arguments aren't valid IMO
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08-27-2008 12:37 PM #84
Hacker: we all seem to be assuming that the members of the LPGA are employees
That was my point from the beginning.
Also the fact that Nike is asking them to speak english is pretty small world. The english speaking Nike sponsord players are promoting Nike in the US. Pak is promoting Nike in Korea, Ochoa is promoting Nike is Mexico, etc...
Some of you guys seem to think that the US is the centre of the World. Why is the LPGA having trouble with sponsor... the US is in a recession.
When they have Pro-Am in Japan do the American player speaks Japanese to the people they play with. When in China do they... you get the point.If you think it's hard to meet new people, try picking up the wrong golf ball.
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08-27-2008 01:04 PM #85
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Ok, let's try it this way...
The LPGA is a league. If you want to play in their league you must qualify. To qualify you must go through Q-School. And not only do you need to shoot low scores, you must pass an English Test...
There. How's that? Do they have a right to do that? I would think they do have that right. If you don't want to play in their league, go play elsewhere.
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08-27-2008 04:52 PM #86
I'll take that bet. Based on the limited research I did and what I heard on the Golf Channel last night, it might end up in course, but the LPGA will likely win.
Of course, that's just from a legal perspective. They may well ultimately end up losing in the court of public opinion.
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08-27-2008 06:17 PM #87
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the way that all tours make money is through money and sponsorship, pro-ams are huge money makes by paring big sponsor executives with big name players... of course it makes sense to make sure that the players can communicate and interact with the coperate executives
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08-27-2008 06:52 PM #88
Wow, talk about misconstruing my response. They can't do whatever they want, but they can make language requirements provided they are not discriminatory in nature....provided they do not discriminate based on race or ethnicity. As the LPGA welcomes players of all ethnicities, this policy would not be deemed discriminatory.
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08-27-2008 07:20 PM #89
Sounds a lot like the old southern US Literacy Tests for voters. Of course it was only for "certain" voters.
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08-27-2008 08:08 PM #90
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