What is the most accurate simulator/lm/swing analyzer to measure club head data????

[drcabral]

With so many devices on the market which gives you true and accuate club head data???? I know trackman is the holy grail for ballflight data but does it give you accurate club head data? What about Swingbyte and Proswing swing analyzer? What about Protee? What about GC2 HMT

The reason I ask is because it appears club head data can help you improve the mechanics of your swing without interpreting ball flight data or video camera analysis. I am interested in purchasing the GC2 but the HMT to my understanding is expensive and may not be accurate. What can be used to supplement this system? Should you but a swing analyzer? I recognize that the Protee is a great simulator but I am leaning toward GC2 for accurate ballflight data and to hit off of TRUTURF mat for feel. Thanks for your advice.

[bubba22]

What are you trying to acheive? Did you read http://forum.ottawagolf.com/showthre...a-vs-Ball-Data and http://forum.ottawagolf.com/showthre...rove-your-game. No one can answer which is best. You need to figure out what is more important for you, what pricepoint your willing to pay etc. Getting accurate club data is not easy or simple!!!

[wbealsd]

Which factor is most important to YOU, ball data or club data.? IMHO, unless you have an extremely large budget, you're really stuck with the "ball data vs club data" decision.

If you're looking for something $10K or less, my choices would be ProTee or GC2, depending on what's most important to YOU.

Club data, I believe the nod goes to ProTee. It's probably the best overall system that combines club data, realistic putting, lots of courses, realistic ball flight, online gaming option and excellent support and tips by forum members here. Protee Customer service is also very good.

Quality, affordable ball data goes to GC2. I wasn't as concerned about the number of courses as I was personal game improvement and equipment testing. With the ball flight data, I'm able to use it to measure the results of my ball striking, as well as test and compare shafts, heads and balls. I've also got 5 courses, which is plenty for me. The GC2 is also portable, so I can take it to the range and to a friends house who's hobby is club building, and it's the same unit the local custom fitting shop uses, which again is a plus, for me personally. I've yet to use Foresight's Customer Support, but I've heard it's good and like the Protee, this forum offers some valuable support and tips.

I plan to add something like SwingByte, SkyPro, SwingTip, etc that can capture swing data at some point the Spring. None of them interface with the GC2, but will provide some additional data that's not captured by the GC2. The HMT is much more expensive than I personally feel it's worth, but your mileage may vary

I don't think any of the Swing Analyzers like Swingbyte and Proswing have really "pulled away from the pack" yet, but we'll know more once the new releases displayed at the PGA Show start shipping and reviews are out.

[drcabral]

I have read the threads before. My question is not which is better ball data vs club head data. That discussion has been beat into the ground. They both are important, and the holy grail remains to obtain both. The question is "which device measures club head data accurately?" It's easy to determine that GC2 is accuate with ball data because you can compare it to trackman or bring it to a driving range and see if the ball flight and data match up.

With club head data the club moves so quickly it is difficult to eye if the club is open, closed, if the ball if off center, if you go from in to out although some of it can be seen and felt no all of it is known. Thus, how do you know protee gives accurate club data? What is it compared to? Is there a gold standard for measuring club data (like the trackman is for measuring ball data)?

As for my simulator needs, I lean toward the GC2 because I like the ease of set up and knowing that the data is relatively true. Maybe when I play a course or two I'll want more but for now one will suit me, as long as it keeps me interested in playing often enough to encourage me to practice in the evenings or during the winter months. To me repitition, access, accurate date and fun are key components to improving. If a simulator gives you erronous information and you make adjustments based off of that, it will not serve your game well. IMHO

[bubba22]

There is no gold standard to compare club data. Trackman estimates club face data. Read the Trackman thread. Also read the latest Trackman newsletter. Protee sensors measure path and face angle before impact. Is it perfect? No. The parameters of club speed, club path, ball speed, ball azimuth and launch angle are easily measured against Doppler and cameras. In fact even my home system I check against a swing speed radar, ball launch monitor and swing camera and will put it against any system. Measuring club face I agree is a challenge but not sure any system is perfect. All I can say is as a single low handicapper (as well as all the scratch players testing my sim) I know the club data and ball flight is very much appropriate. I trust it and have used it to help my swing. Again I am in the camp of club data ( not interested in my ball data -spin etc on a daily basis) only interested in ball spin the 2 days a year I go on a launch monitor to tweak my driver (usually because thanks to Taylormade yearly changes I buy a new driver every year!!!!). But I am interested in my club data on every single shot. Perfect or not, it's consistent and reproducible.

[CPA]

Got the R1 or RBZ2 yet bubba?

[bubba22]

R11s but Testing soon!

[kwantfm]

Perfect or not, it's consistent and reproducible.

Bubba... I think this sentence from your post is key. If the measurement is consistent and you know what that measurement will do to the golf ball then you can use it to work on your swing.

[CPA]

Bubba just bought the R1 TP. Backspin 2000 compared to 3000 on the rip 55 shaft. No excuses now.

[ZMax]

And when you get lost on the course, you can just turn the R1 over and use the built in compass to find your way back to correct fairway.

[bubba22]

Bubba just bought the R1 TP. Backspin 2000 compared to 3000 on the rip 55 shaft. No excuses now.

Nope! Love my R11s, custom shaft, tweaked on range, launch monitor and sim. Not buying into the new hype. Now if my driver goes south in the middle of the golf season ........

[CPA]

Z . I use the legal GPS to find fairways. If you use the wrench to let the dial on the bottom swing like a compass - round disqualified and so I hear that they programmed the R1 compass to find the nearest bar if the round is that bad you use the wrench!

But seriously I recommend a swing as it is heaven to swing. Just feels right (all in the mind I know). Didn't even cut down the shaft.

[Frans@france]

There is no gold standard to compare club data. Trackman estimates club face data. Read the Trackman thread. Also read the latest Trackman newsletter. Protee sensors measure path and face angle before impact. Is it perfect? No.

euhh...well if you talk about estimated face angle by TM and reading the newsletters then you should be aware that Protee doesn't measure path but only some kind of swing plane direction

[Asics]

Frans,

Can you explain/elaborate on what you mean that Protee doesn't measure path but only some kind of swing plane direction? How would the Protee numbers compare with the information provided by TM or FS?

[jackhawk]

OK so I understand that the Optishot is not that accurate, but I have been using it for a couple years and seems to be pretty accurate when set up correctly. It's website says that it has a club head speed accuracy of +/- 2.0 miles per hour. Face angle accuracy is within +/- 1.5 degrees and swing path within +/- 2.0 degrees. I can buy that (with the exception of the occasional (1/30) swing data that is obviously way off - mostly clubhead speed).

For those with more experience with the Optishot, Protee, Trackman, etc. - do you buy those stats and how much more accurate are the other products for clubhead data and swingpath. I really only use it for the face angle and swing path data to help groove my swing some for the winter (and somewhat for entertainment). I am a 9 and really just want to work on my basic consistent slight inside out swingpath with a square to minimally open club face during the winter. Ball data, tweaking the results, chipping, puttting, etc., I get on the course from Spring to Fall. I am debating if it is worth upgrading to something else.

Don't mean to hijack the thread. I know this has been discussed somewhat on another thread, but I cannot find it. If anybody knows where it is, if you could direct me there, I will be on my way.

[bubba22]

You are not hijacking, I just don't think Optishot is the most accurate sim/lm/swing analyser to meassure club face. Don't think Protee is either. Point is I don't know what system gives the most accurate clubface data neither does anyone!!!

[Frans@france]

You are not hijacking, I just don't think Optishot is the most accurate sim/lm/swing analyser to meassure club face. Don't think Protee is either. Point is I don't know what system gives the most accurate clubface data neither does anyone!!!

However some take the time to explain what accurate means for them and how they calculated it...read the TM newsletter to see how they define "accuracy" of the TM system.

Certain systems get more attention and have much less "room" for error. Zelocity being a fine example of the other end of the spectrum

[Frans@france]

Frans,

Can you explain/elaborate on what you mean that Protee doesn't measure path but only some kind of swing plane direction? How would the Protee numbers compare with the information provided by TM or FS?

If you want more information about d-plane/ball flight etc, i can recommend reading the TM newsletters. Lots of information to be found in there.

Clubpath is the path the club is taken during the impact and is (in short) a function of the swingplane direction/Angle of Attack and Swingplane Angle. As Protee can not really measure those values it's reported path is less correct the more the AoA is away from zero and the swingplane is flatter.

It's because of this relation that in order to hit straigth (0* clubpath) with the irons you need to be swinging to the left (more left if your AoA is steeper) and to the right with the driver if the AoA is positive (more right the higher the AoA).

To give you an idea if your swing direction is 0 degree and your AoA is -4 degree with a driver your path will be around 4 degrees and with an i6 around 2deg.

to quote TM "At 200 fps, (Driver) club path changes 10 degrees between frames in the downswing!"

[ZMax]

What you call a newsletter, I call propaganda. Most of that stuff is beyound most people's comprehension.


Jayhawk, it"s worth it to upgrade. The biggest problems with the Optishot/P3pro's IR reflective sensors are the inconsistent readings due to reflections. I've owned both so I know. The other problem is where face angle sensors are placed in relation to the ball/tee. Because of the location of where the ball will be, the Opti shot doesn't really measure right before impact and doesn't really measure speed either. The P3pro is better but still inconsistent.

While the Protee is not perfect, no device is at the moment, it's IMO better than most and the shadow based optical sensors are more consistent than IR reflective sensors. The Protee has helped me get my swing path back on track more than I can count.

[CPA]

has anyone looked at the differences in the claimed accuracy tolerances of TM on page 5 of Jan 2013 newsletter and the GC2 HMT.

are the numbers talking about the same accuracy measures ?

[Asics]

Frans, so if Protee doesn't measure the true club path, what does it measure...the horizontal swing plane? And then separately the attack angle? Zmax, you probably know the answer to this, too. Thanks.

[ZMax]

Frans is right technically. But for the most part, it doesn't really matter. True, the Protee doesn't measure AOA, but does measure LA, ball path, and ball speed. It also measures horizontal impact points(heel, toe in mm from center). The club path gest measured as the shadow of the club crosses the back and middle sensors. Might not be perfect, but works well enough and like I said, it's better than most. If you have a tendency to slice with an over the top, outside-in swing, the Protee will show exactly that.

[Frans@france]

If you have a tendency to slice with an over the top, outside-in swing, the Protee will show exactly that.

7i : try outside-movement with an big AoA (like around -10*) .....Protee\P3Pro etc will give you a slice...same shot on the Driving range will show a almost straight ball.....

Just to be clear : I own a P3Pro as well and it has great price/quality value. My post was a reply to Bubba22 trying to balance some of the remarks made about the TM by explaining that other machines have similar or other issues..

[bubba22]

Frans tell me what unit is the gold standard to measure club data???? I argue there is none. I personally have the P3pro, optishot and Protee as well weekly play with an About Golf 3 track, Trugolf Prestige, Flightscope and Trackman (at our local club) so I know my swing on all those machines. I have read every thread on the Manzella golf forum. Have you used a Protee and tried hitting outside movement with a AOA -10? I can tell you its not always a slice. So if you don't have a Protee how can you make that statement? Not here to argue with you about which which unit is the most accurate because like I said, I don't know. But I do know that there is no comparison with the Prote and the P3pro and that is a fact. We all will agree that measuring club data is complex, even Trackman will agree on that point. We can argue till the cows come home and get very technical about this topic. At the end there will be no right answer! I am by no means putting down Trackman nor comparing the Protee to Trackman. They are in totally different catagories. If money or space in my house were not an issue then I would love to have an indoor Trackman. The fact is however it is not a perfect machine although like I said, what is???

[Frans@france]

The fact is however it is not a perfect machine although like I said, what is???

Weird discision this is. There is no thing as perfect for whatever measurement. Absolut perfect doesn't exist.

Frans tell me what unit is the gold standard to measure club data????

Multi camera Highspeed video, serious highspeed. Because that is what companies like TM & FS use to confirm their measurements.

[bubba22]

So Trackman is perfect and is the gold standard!

[Asics]

So Trackman is perfect and is the gold standard!

I think he stated in the post you are replying to that “absolute perfect doesn’t exist.” However, I doubt few would argue that Trackman isn't about as good as it gets with current technology when it comes to club head data. The so-called “new” ball flight laws were essentially confirmed/validated by Trackman.

[Frans@france]

So Trackman is perfect and is the gold standard!

euhhh???
question :

what unit is the gold standard to measure club data

answer

Multi camera Highspeed video, serious highspeed

[bubba22]

Frans, I like the Trackman. I am not arguing with anyone about its Technology. I use the Trackman and Flightscope as well for fitting. Multicamera high sped cameras are not possible for the average home user or teaching pro (public in general) I already stated that if money were not an issue I would get the Trackman. I am asking you what is the gold standard for home users? Is it in your opinion the Trackman??

[Frans@france]

I am asking you what is the gold standard for home users? Is it in your opinion the Trackman??

Yes, but only if you're willing to learn and understand stuff like ball flight laws....If not then I would never recommend it.

As soon as you start understanding the data it can produce and how you can use it it becomes an amazing machine.