Cart path gravel in hazzard

[Kilroy]

On Mont Cascade's 7th hole, there is a cart path at the bottom of the hill at the narrowest point. The path is adjacent to a ditch which is staked as a hazzard. The retaining wall of the cart path has broken, and a considerable amount of "cart path gravel" has spilled into the ditch.

One of my group's ball is in the ditch, and the gravel is interfering with play.

I figured it to be rub of the green (no relief in a hazzard) but it was argued by a third player, that it should be considered ground under repair, which had not been marked by the course, but I could not disagree with the fact that is should be. So we allowed relief, which the player declined since he was not convinced it was right.

If relief was allowed, I would assume it must be taken in the hazzard.

Ok, how'd we do on that one?

[Gary Hill]

There is absolutely NO free relief from an abnormal ground condition (casual water, ground under repair, or a hole, cast or runway made by a burrowing animal, a reptile or a bird) in a water hazard.

That's why they call them hazards.

Edit Note: The original post incorrectly stated "in a hazard". It now correctly states "in a water hazard".

[NoBack]

ok..... so you say that the cart path gravel - which IS man made - and now falling through the reataining wall (which is also man made) should NOT be considered a man made object because it fell into the hazard? And that it should be hit as it lies? There would be no gravel in there if they had built the wall better or not at all.

Also, just curious..... What about in '98 after the ice storm?
Lots of trees piled high in the woods for appearance sake? Would one not get relief for that?

[Gary Hill]

Gravel in a hazard is a loose impediment. There is no relief from loose impediments in a hazard.

I have seen washed gravel and screened gravel, but I have never seen man-made gravel.

Material piled for removal is ground under repair, even if not so marked.

[Kilroy]

>There is no relief from loose impediments in a hazard.

Can't you move a loose impediment in a bunker (hazzard) under RCGA rules? I guess that is not classified as relief? So it would have been OK to remove the gravel, as long as the ball remained undisturbed???

>Material piled for removal is ground under repair

So... if it is piled within the boundaries of a hazzard, such as on the wrong side of the red stakes, in the bush, then there is no relief from the piled branches? They seldom pile them on the fairways

[Gary Hill]

You cannot move a loose impediment in a bunker. It would NOT have been OK to remove the gravel in the hazard.

Before making a stroke at a ball which is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard), the player shall not touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard - Rule 13-4 (in part).

There is no relief from material piled for removal in a hazard.

If a ball is in a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard), the player is not entitled to relief without penalty from interference by an abnormal ground condition - Rule 25-1b (in part).

[Kilroy]

The RCGA does not offer a copy of the rules on thier site.

I am certain that I read that the removal of stones in a bunker is permitted under RCGA rules (as in Europe) for saftey reasons.

Am I mistaken or is a stone a special case?
ie:does not apply to another kind of loose impediment such as a twig.

[NoBack]

ok Gary....gravel is not man made... but then neither is the wood a bench is made from...... so how did the gravel get onto the course and made into a cart path? If not made by man i would like to see the animals, birds or something NOT man that brought the gravel there. Must have been brought there and lined up into a path by God.

Also, if there was someone working on the un-man-made-washed-out cart path retaining wall and was eating his lunch when a ball lands in the hazard and into his lunch box , would you be expected to hit it from where it lies because it is in the hazard?

And Gary you must think we are all stupid because if a ball is under a wooden bench we would have to play the ball where it lies as well cause the wood is from trees which are as natural as the gravel ?

[Kilroy]

>And Gary you must think we are all stupid

Hmmm... Nine1 this is unnessesary.
Gary is here to help, as a volunteer. Please refrain from this sort of comment. He has a thick skin as we have seen, but too many of these and we could loose him.

Obviously the bench is man made, the wood that makes up the bench is not. The cart path is man made and the gravel is made from natural stone.

You do get relief from benches and cart paths, just not if the gravel spills into the hazzard. If the bench were in the hazzard, no relief. Seems clear enough.

>ball lands in the hazard and into his lunch box , would you be expected to hit it from where it lies because it is in the hazard?

Sounds like it

[NoBack]

ok maybe i should not use those words and i appologize to gary but....
to tell me that gravel is a natural object ....... what about the rest of the things on the course made from natural objects as well but transformed into something man made and then releif is given?

how did the "natural" gravel get there in the first place???

....... if cart path gravel is considered natural as gary states then NO relief should EVER be given (whether in or out of a hazard).


also...... i just re-read this ...."and the gravel is made from natural stone" you did use the word MADE....... i guess it is made by someone other than man...........lol

[Gary Hill]

The Rules and Decisions can be found online here.

http://www.usga.com/rules/rule_2000/index.html

The Rules can be downloaded from the R&A site here.

http://www.randa.org/rules_of_golf/rules_download.sps

The Rules for the U.S.G.A, the R&A, and R.C.G.A. are exactly the same.

Stones are, by definition, loose impediments and, when a player's ball is in a hazard, a stone lying in or touching the hazard may not be touched or moved (Rule 13-4). However, stones in bunkers may represent a danger to players (a player could be injured by a stone struck by the player's club in an attempt to play the ball) and they may interfere with the proper playing of the game.

When permission to lift a stone in a bunker would be warranted, the following Local Rule is recommended:
"Stones in bunkers are movable obstructions (Rule 24-1 applies)."

Stones in bunkers may be lifted only under authority of a Local Rule.

[Gary Hill]

Originally posted by nine1
gravel is not man made... but then neither is the wood a bench is made from...

The definitions do not make reference to "man-made". A loose impediment is a natural object. A obstruction is an artificial object.

Ice (loose impediment) loses its status as a natural object when it is manufactured into ice cubes (obstruction).

would you be expected to hit it from where it lies because it is in the hazard?

Yes (or take relief under Rule 26-1). There is no free relief from an abnormal ground condition in a water hazard whether or not a greenkeeper is or has been working in the hazard.

And Gary you must think we are all stupid

On the contrary, it shows you are genuinely interested in the fine points of the Rules.

A tree (natural object) loses its status when it is manufactured into a bench (obstruction).
Gravel (loose impediment) is never altered into something artificial.

A path becomes an obstruction when surfaced with gravel, but the gravel retains its status as a loose impediment on the obstruction.

[Gary Hill]

Originally posted by Dan Kilbank
Gary is here to help, as a volunteer.

VOLUNTEER???? I assumed my cheque was in the mail.

[Kilroy]

[NoBack]

ok gary this is my last comment on THIS issue....

i agree that a single rock / stone is a loose impediment and should not be moved BUT by what you just said about gravel
becoming an obstruction, and that obstruction is now in the hazard????

[Gary Hill]

by what you just said about gravel becoming an obstruction

The PATH becomes an immovable obstruction. You are entitled to free relief off the path, but if you choose to play your ball as it lies on the path, you would be allowed to remove gravel interfering with your stroke.

Gravel is always loose impediments (except for "French drains" which is a completely separate issue) and may be removed from an immovable obstruction, but not from a hazard.

this is my last comment on THIS issue

Please do not give up on a question just because a clear understanding is not immediately apparent.
Explanation of the Rules using written questions and answers is a difficult process.

[spidey]

Perhaps nine1 is forgetting the rule about obstructions in a water hazard. There ARE obstructions in a water hazard. Even if the obstruction was designed to be outside a water hazard, it's still bound by the rules of the water hazard.

If a wind shelter is set up beside a water hazard, and falls into the hazard, the relief is not according to the fact that it is an obstruction, but according to the fact that it's within the boundary of the water hazard.

A wooden bridge across a water hazard is an obstruction inside a hazard. You may play off it in the hazard. But if you want relief, you must take relief per the water hazard rule, not the obstruction rule.

If the bridge breaks and falls into the hazard, it is the same rule, whether or not it was outside the hazard in a previous life. Relief is available per the water hazard rule, not the obstruction rule.

I think....

spidey

[Gary Hill]

There is NO relief from an immovable obstruction in a water hazard.

You do NOT get relief from a wind shelter in a water hazard.

You do NOT get relief from a bridge in a water hazard.

Rule 24-2b.
Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may obtain relief from interference by an immovable obstruction, without penalty, as follows:

[spidey]

...perhaps my flawed understanding of the word "relief".

Maybe I should have said "options". I never meant to imply that there was no penalty when implementing an option under the water hazard rules.

In fact, even the obstruction rule clarifies that relief is taken without penalty, which indicates to me, that relief (in general) can be with, or without penalty, depending on which rule, or option is employed by the player.

spidey

[Gary Hill]

This discussion is about free relief.

Injecting "other" penalty options into this particularly complex and technical thread is confusing and unhelpful.

If you would like to discuss player's options in a given situation, please start a new thread.