Way To Go Penguins - You're Screwing It Up!!!

[broken27]

The Penguins will be losing money this year, even if they make it to the Stanley Cup Finals, reports the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
Even if the team sell-outs every night and has a playoff run that lasts two rounds, Mario Lemieux told reports yesterday the team is forecast to lose $7 million this season.

The Penguins' team payroll this year falls between $30-$31 million, up from $22 million last season.

And while the team is also projected to lose money the following year, the Penguins are prepared to make that short-term sacrifice to win.

"That's the bottom line," Lemieux said. "We feel that with Sidney (Crosby) now, we have a great opportunity the next few years to put a great team on the ice and have a chance to win. That's why we're doing it. We're prepared to lose some money along the way, but eventually, we're going to need some help."

Okay, so we haven't even played one game under the new CBA, and the Penguins have already managed to get into financial trouble. Idiots. Mario's quote about being "prepared to lose money along the way, but we'll eventually need some help" is friggin laughable. Screw you Mario... No help should be offered to franchises who operate above their means (and still under the cap!!!). Fold em up the minute they ask for a penny.

So glad Jagr's not there for this... Was horrible watching that crappy team play just to see his brilliance... At least the Rangers aren't welfare cases...

Dan

PS - Sidney: When your paycheques start bouncing, just start pawning stuff from Mario's house to make ends meet.... I'm sure someone will want to buy it, just not me...

[1972Apex]

Welcome back Dan....

[dbleber]

With the hit from the lockout, I am sure they are not the only ones who will lose money this year. Most business plans don't show profit for the first couple of years. If I can remember back to my economics classes I think it is focasted as 5 years as being the average. What they are trying to do is make a more marketable product. If they would have done nothing, then Pittsburgh would have had to fold. This way they are taking the chance that if they can get a good product on the ice and win the fans back that it will turn into profit down the round. Not uncommon in business and only time will tell if it will work or not, but Pittsburgh use to be a great hockey town. Maybe they have been just dying to see new blood in Pittsburgh.

[jeffc]

The city of Pittsburgh was all too happy to build a football and baseball stadium for those teams. It would be nice to see the Pens get the same treatment.

[broken27]

With the hit from the lockout, I am sure they are not the only ones who will lose money this year. Most business plans don't show profit for the first couple of years. If I can remember back to my economics classes I think it is focasted as 5 years as being the average. What they are trying to do is make a more marketable product. If they would have done nothing, then Pittsburgh would have had to fold. This way they are taking the chance that if they can get a good product on the ice and win the fans back that it will turn into profit down the round. Not uncommon in business and only time will tell if it will work or not, but Pittsburgh use to be a great hockey town. Maybe they have been just dying to see new blood in Pittsburgh.

I know a business plan works this way, from day one. But, and this is what people seem unwilling to see, the Penguins have been crying poor for near a decade now, to the point where they were going to move or fold...

This is not the beginning of business. This is the extension of idiotic spending habits by people who can not afford the luxuries they are granting themselves.

Don't sign on a new deal which is supposed to bring financial sanity to the league, then turn around and say you're going to be asking for a handout in a few years.

Hopefully (but not likely) the fans will stay away. At least once the novelty of Crosby goes away... Then we can pack up that lousy franchise and fold it.

Dan

[mberube]

I know a business plan works this way, from day one. But, and this is what people seem unwilling to see, the Penguins have been crying poor for near a decade now, to the point where they were going to move or fold...

This is not the beginning of business. This is the extension of idiotic spending habits by people who can not afford the luxuries they are granting themselves.

Don't sign on a new deal which is supposed to bring financial sanity to the league, then turn around and say you're going to be asking for a handout in a few years.

Hopefully (but not likely) the fans will stay away. At least once the novelty of Crosby goes away... Then we can pack up that lousy franchise and fold it.

Dan

I think that last season $22M was more idiotic then this seasons $31M. If you don’t get good player on the ice and win games the fans won’t comeback. You must spend money to make money. This seasons ticket spending spree is proof of that.

Most Canadian franchises were in this situation the last couple of season. MTL (one of the original six) needed to make it to the second round of the playoffs to brake even. Ottawa a few years back, Edmonton….

What the Pens are doing is the right thing to do in their current situation. In business you must take the bull by the horns and not fold when the going gets rough.

Look at it this way, If Crosby turns out to be the great playing they say he is then they are in a win-win situation. They get a new start in Pitts with a new arena or the up there market value for a potential buyer that will move the team.

Dan, get over It, Mario is back and will win the scoring tittle.

[broken27]

Dan, get over It, Mario is back and will win the scoring tittle.

Well, unless their little "slot machine" plan can build an arena in two seasons (HAVE it built), then the Penguins would have to re-lease Mellon Arena, as the current agreement comes to term in 2007. Once that date passes, you can kiss the team goodbye anyways. Don't really see how them losing money on top of that is a good idea.

How can someone ask for a handout from the government while on a spending spree? Especially when it's private enterprise.

As for Mario and the scoring title... well, let's not start patting each others' asses just yet in Pittsburgh... I'd be firstly willing to bet he doesn't win the scoring title, and secondly that he misses a minimum of 30 games.

I'd also be willing to bet that you'll see a first-time Art Ross Trophy winner this season.

All things I'll look up the odds on at some point. If it's worth it, I'll definitely lay money on those three things.

Dan

[The Shtick]

I agree that you have to spend money to make money but the Penguins haven't had money to spend in the first place!! They are throwing the hail mary pass this year and if it works, fine. Good job. If it doesn't work, they'll be screwed like Dan said. The team will have to fold or move to another city. They should have kept their priorities in place and gone after a new arena instead of completely rebuilding a team with no place to play!!

I'd love for Winnipeg to get a franchise again..... one could only hope.....

[mberube]

I agree that you have to spend money to make money but the Penguins haven't had money to spend in the first place!! They are throwing the hail mary pass this year and if it works, fine. Good job. If it doesn't work, they'll be screwed like Dan said. The team will have to fold or move to another city. They should have kept their priorities in place and gone after a new arena instead of completely rebuilding a team with no place to play!!

I'd love for Winnipeg to get a franchise again..... one could only hope.....

Ya but if they don’t spend money they are assured to fold up. They are already screwed. Might as well go down fighting. If they do make it to the first round of the playoffs, second round or better, they have bought them selves a new beginning.

A little less then half of NHL teams before the new CDA, played with a deficit at the end of last season. What makes it different for Pitts. The Pens wont be the only tem in a rut at the end of the season.

[dbleber]

They should have kept their priorities in place and gone after a new arena instead of completely rebuilding a team with no place to play!!

They need the cities support to get a new arena. Thats why they have to go all out this year. The city would not support a loss cause, thi sway if they do well they have something to bring to the table in trems of proof.

[broken27]

Why should governments support or build arenas? I find that laughable. Of course I realize the benefits to local economies of having pro sports franchises around, and I even think it's ludicrous for the Senators to have to pay that friggin off-ramp from the 417, but I don't believe an arena (in any city, under any circumstances) should be paid for by a government. In fact, if I were the NHL's commissioner, it would be one of my main stipulations when awarding franchises: Build your own arena.

This is wrong on so many levels...

Dan

[Kilroy]

Why should governments support or build arenas? ...Of course I realize the benefits to local economies

Then you answered your own question.

"What have the Romans really done for us, I mean besides the aquiduct, roads, education, oh and sewage... yah, remember what the city used to be like..."
Reg (John Cleese)- Life Of Brian

[1972Apex]

Then you answered your own question.

"What have the Romans really done for us, I mean besides the aquiduct, roads, education, oh and sewage... yah, remember what the city used to be like..."
Reg (John Cleese)- Life Of Brian

You are too funny! That is one of my all-time favorite quotes.
Man, it is good to have Dan back posting on the forum . I have not laughed this hard in weeks.
BTW, to the other Dan (Broken 27), I mean that as a compliment!
I may not agree with anything you say, but your threads are like Pandora's Box... I know what's inside but I just have to open it LOL!

[davevandyk]

the simple fact is the Pens will lose money this year, but i can guarantee they will not lose as much money as a lot of other teams. The only difference is that they are trying to turn their loses around. Sure they could have signed nobody but Crosby, lost 4 million instead of 7 but as soon as Crosby's contract is up, he would hold out until he got traded to a team that is a contender. All teams are trying this strategy. Look at Phoenix, Anahiem and LA. They all tried to land big players to get the fan interest up.

What happens in Anahiem if the fans don't come out?? They just signed Niedemyer and Selanne i believe, i can almost guarantee they will lose money unless they run deep into the playoffs!

[el tigre]

In fact, if I were the NHL's commissioner, it would be one of my main stipulations when awarding franchises: Build your own arena.

Why should you care who owns the arena? As long as the team has the proper venue for an NHL team, the ownership of the bricks-and-mortar is really none of your business.

If the fine citizens of Winnipeg, Pittsburgh or the Back-of-Beyond, USA are willing to put money towards an arena to host an NHL team, who are you to tell them that they can't? Its not your money or your town.

Do you think there are many arenas in Europe that are privately-owned? Or soccer stadiums? Virtually all of them were built and are owned by some level of government. So Dan, would you shut down European hockey and soccer until they find enough rich businessmen to buy them all places to play?

[broken27]

Why should you care who owns the arena? As long as the team has the proper venue for an NHL team, the ownership of the bricks-and-mortar is really none of your business.

If the fine citizens of Winnipeg, Pittsburgh or the Back-of-Beyond, USA are willing to put money towards an arena to host an NHL team, who are you to tell them that they can't? Its not your money or your town.

Do you think there are many arenas in Europe that are privately-owned? Or soccer stadiums? Virtually all of them were built and are owned by some level of government. So Dan, would you shut down European hockey and soccer until they find enough rich businessmen to buy them all places to play?

Consider this, most of the money used to build these "free" arenas comes from the state, not the local government. In this case, were I a citizen of the given state, I'd object. At this point I object in principle.

As for why I'd take this stance, well it's plain and simple Terry. It's collateral of sorts. It shows that the ownership has enough money to play in a league that is trying to gain popularity in a big-boys market. You NEED money to play in this league as an owner. They're in a position now in particular where the stability of ownership is critical, considering linkage and the potential damage done by the lockout. With a projected dwindling revenue stream for the next three years, fiscally it isn't responsible to allow teams to be propped up artificially, lest more damage is done to an already hurting league. Remember, Pittsburgh WAS a competitive team until they traded Jagr, Lang, Straka, Kovalev, for next to nothing. Those prospects never came through, and only Kris Beech really has a legit shot this season.

I know you believe I'm just saying this stuff because I'm a Mario-hater (more than even Tiger). It's really about what the franchise is doing, and how it's just going to ruin a perfectly good CBA opportunity. They'll be forced into a firesale at some point in the near future, just watch...

Dan

[el tigre]

Consider this, most of the money used to build these "free" arenas comes from the state, not the local government. In this case, were I a citizen of the given state, I'd object.

Object if you want to. You have one vote - same as everybody else.

[broken27]

Object if you want to. You have one vote - same as everybody else.

If a constituency made it's electoral decisions based strictly on the funding of an arena, I'd move to a different state.

Dan

[davevandyk]

Dan, you are talking about having owners being able to stand on their own two feet. What if you were the owner of the Senators and you had 40 million in your pocket. You could either build an arena for 30million and have 10 left over for salaries, or you can get government to step in and pay for the arena and have 40 million for salaries.

Does it really benefit the league to say "I am financially able to stand on my own because i built my own rink?" You built your own rink, but now only can afford players the caliber of 4th line players only because all of the money you had went into the arena. How do you make people want to come to watch you when your top line consists of the likes of players who would barely make other teams' squads??

You are back to owning your own building and having 10,000 people a night if you are lucky!! Doesn't make sense to me

[el tigre]

As for why I'd take this stance, well it's plain and simple Terry. It's collateral of sorts. It shows that the ownership has enough money to play in a league that is trying to gain popularity in a big-boys market. You NEED money to play in this league as an owner.

Just because I HAVE enough money to buy my own arena doesn't mean that I WANT to, and I'm not going to let some pipsqueak little NHL commissioner tell me that I HAVE to. Why wouldn't I let someone else spend their money on building the arena? How do you think I got to be rich in the first place?

I know you believe I'm just saying this stuff because I'm a Mario-hater (more than even Tiger).

If you're the NHL commissioner, you'd better be nice to Mario. He's your BOSS. And you might want to re-consider that sink-or-swim attitude towards struggling franchises. Otherwise I don't fancy your chances when the subject of your continued employment is on the agenda at the next board meeting.

[mberube]

As for Mario and the scoring title... well, let's not start patting each others' asses just yet in Pittsburgh... I'd be firstly willing to bet he doesn't win the scoring title, and secondly that he misses a minimum of 30 games.
Dan

52 games compared to 14 that you originally predicted in another thread. We are moving up, Dan.

Mario has a 2.67 points per game average. I won’t calculate that average for this season but lets take a look at the 2002-2003 season. 91 points in 67 games. 8th overall. That a 1.35 PPG average.

Although I think his average will be higher then 1.35 PPG this season, I will still use that average. 52 games should give him a minimum of 71 points.

71 point would have put him 21st in the standing last season. Not bad of an old man who is supposedly finished.

[broken27]

Just because I HAVE enough money to buy my own arena doesn't mean that I WANT to, and I'm not going to let some pipsqueak little NHL commissioner tell me that I HAVE to. Why wouldn't I let someone else spend their money on building the arena? How do you think I got to be rich in the first place?

If you're the NHL commissioner, you'd better be nice to Mario. He's your BOSS. And you might want to re-consider that sink-or-swim attitude towards struggling franchises. Otherwise I don't fancy your chances when the subject of your continued employment is on the agenda at the next board meeting.

You WOULD have some pipsqueak little NHL commissioner tell you exactly what you HAVE to do because otherwise you can forget being granted a franchise.

Mario is one of 30 bosses, so I can hedge my future elsewhere. I'm sure guys like Ilitch (sp?) in Detroit are thrilled at what weak ownership has done to the NHL...

Dan

[The Shtick]

It looks like Mario won't be on the same line as Crosby. Crosby is slated to play with Recchi and LeClair. I guess that the only way that Mario can get 71 points (or whatever) is by playing on the second AND third line!!

[el tigre]

You WOULD have some pipsqueak little NHL commissioner tell you exactly what you HAVE to do because otherwise you can forget being granted a franchise.

Mario is one of 30 bosses, so I can hedge my future elsewhere. I'm sure guys like Ilitch (sp?) in Detroit are thrilled at what weak ownership has done to the NHL...

Dan

Oops, sorry Dan. What was I thinking?

This is your fantasy, so naturally you'll make yourself Commissioner-for-Life and give yourself TOTAL control over all franchise decisions. Who cares what all those pesky owners who actually PAY all the bills and sit on the Board think? So what if you made them spend hundreds of millions of dollars more than they had to in order to join your exclusive little club! I'm sure they'll all LOVE you for it!!


Geez, why do I always getted sucked into these pointless discussions?

[The Shtick]

Geez, why do I always getted sucked into these pointless discussions?

I guess that you are just a pointless discussions kind of guy!

[broken27]

Oops, sorry Dan. What was I thinking?

This is your fantasy, so naturally you'll make yourself Commissioner-for-Life and give yourself TOTAL control over all franchise decisions. Who cares what all those pesky owners who actually PAY all the bills and sit on the Board think? So what if you made them spend hundreds of millions of dollars more than they had to in order to join your exclusive little club! I'm sure they'll all LOVE you for it!!


Geez, why do I always getted sucked into these pointless discussions?

At times I think you miss the point on purpose just to continue these threads...

A) Yes, it's my little fantasy world, which should suffice.
B) I am quite aware of the structure of the NHL Executive Board and am familiar with what a good number of owners believe in.
C) If you refer to the beginning of the point, I was talking about granting someone an expansion franchise.

Now, I assume you were actively in favour of Bryden's little tax schemes and ideological loopholes in provincial tax application? You personally enjoy paying upwards of 35% of your annual salary in taxes and believe that professional hockey arenas are the place to spend that revenue? Especially in the States, where they don't have universal health care and a crumbling education system...

Right?

Dan

[Kilroy]

upwards of 35% of your annual salary blah blah blah universal health care blah blah crumbling education system...

Ahem... This is getting too political. Back to the politics of hockey please.

[dbleber]

Ahem... This is getting too political. Back to the politics of hockey please.

Leafs Suck!
Go Sens Go!!!

[davevandyk]

Leafs Suck!
Go Sens Go!!!

Good point, i really think the above quote is really what every good hockey discussion boils down to!!!!

[Colby]

Leafs Suck!
Go Sens Go!!!

Attay boy!!!

All chant now Leafs Suck, Leafs Suck!

(wish I could make the yellow guy blue...)