Am I obligated to identify?

[mberube]

If I hit a ball in the woods off the tee then I hit a provisional ball dead center, I then look for my first ball and spot a ball in the dense bushes. From where I am, I can see if that ball is mine. Am I obligated to identify that ball or can I just say that the ball is lost, not try to identify it and play my provisional ball?

Thanks
Mike

[Kilroy]

From where I am, I can see if that ball is mine.

Then you have already identified it and if you know it to be your ball, your provisional is abandoned.

[jhazelton]

Seems this decision is basically on point (specifically the point about not rendering a ball lost by declaration):

27/16 Ball Declared Lost Is Found Before Another Ball Put into Play

Q. A player searched for his ball for two minutes, declared it lost and started back to play another ball at the spot from which the original ball was played. Before he put another ball into play, his original ball was found within the five-minute period allowed for search. What is the ruling?
A. A player cannot render a ball lost by a declaration — see Definition of “Lost Ball.” The original ball remained in play — see Definition of “Ball in Play.”

[mberube]

Then you have already identified it and if you know it to be your ball, your provisional is abandoned.

Sorry, typo, I can't see if the ball is mine.

[jvincent]

Sorry, typo, I can't see if the ball is mine.

If you can't identify it as your ball, then your ball is lost.

[Gary Hill]

If I hit a ball in the woods off the tee then I hit a provisional ball dead center, I then look for my first ball and spot a ball in the dense bushes. From where I am, I [CAN'T] see if that ball is mine. Am I obligated to identify that ball or can I just say that the ball is lost, not try to identify it and play my provisional ball?

Thanks
Mike

Refusal to identify the ball will result in disqualification.

[jhazelton]

Gary,

What about decision 27-2b/1, Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball?

How does that fit in? I imagine the FC can go identify the ball and force him to play it. If he plays his provisional before the FC identifies the ball, is it not lost by definition?

[jvincent]

Refusal to identify the ball will result in disqualification.

I don't think he is saying he won't, but that he cannot get to the ball to identify it.

For example, if the ball were stuck up in a tree, or in the middle of a thicket of thorns.

[Gary Hill]

I don't think he is saying he won't, but that he cannot get to the ball to identify it.

For example, if the ball were stuck up in a tree, or in the middle of a thicket of thorns.

Where in the original question did you get the impression that he cannot get to his ball to try to identify it?

[mberube]

If you can't identify it as your ball, then your ball is lost.

Let me clarify. I stand about 10 feet from the ball. The ball is in a dense bush. All I see from where I stand is a white ball with no markings. Do I have to make the extra effort to identify the ball? Can I just assume that the ball is not mine and declare my ball lost?

Since my ball is lost, I can then play the provisional.

Mike

[mberube]

Refusal to identify the ball will result in disqualification.

Are you saying that as soon as I see a ball in the bushes I must identify it if it’s mine or not?

Is there a specific rule number that I can read? I can’t find anything.

PS: The provisional ball was not hit a second time. It was hit only from the tee box.

Mike

[Gary Hill]

Gary,

What about decision 27-2b/1, Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball?

How does that fit in? I imagine the FC can go identify the ball and force him to play it. If he plays his provisional before the FC identifies the ball, is it not lost by definition?

It doesn't fit in at all.

Decision 27-2b/1 is asking whether or not a fellow-competitor or opponent may look for the original ball without the player's consent.

I agree that if the player plays his provisional ball from a point where the original ball is likely to be or a point nearer the hole than that place before a fellow-competitor finds a ball, then the original ball is lost by definition.

BTW - A fellow-competitor CANNOT identify a player's ball.

[Gary Hill]

Let me clarify. I stand about 10 feet from the ball. The ball is in a dense bush. All I see from where I stand is a white ball with no markings. Do I have to make the extra effort to identify the ball? Can I just assume that the ball is not mine and declare my ball lost?

Since my ball is lost, I can then play the provisional.

Mike

Yes. You have to make a reasonable effort to identify the ball. You cannot assume that the ball is not yours.

[mberube]

Yes. You have to make a reasonable effort to identify the ball. You cannot assume that the ball is not yours.

Thanks Gary,

That’s what I thought but I can’t find the ruling. Did you find it?

Mike

[Gary Hill]

Are you saying that as soon as I see a ball in the bushes I must identify it if it’s mine or not?

Yes.

Obviously, if the ball is 100 feet up in a tree or on the roof of the clubhouse, it would be impossible to get to the ball to identify it.

However, if it is reasonable to reach the ball, it MUST be identified.

[Gary Hill]

That’s what I thought but I can’t find the ruling. Did you find it?

What ruling are you looking for?

Whether or not you can refuse to identify it or whether or not you have to walk 10 feet to look at it?

[AAA]

Yes.

However, if it is reasonable to reach the ball, it MUST be identified.

I have always understood this but cannot find a rule which says so.
Decision 27/13 refers to a refusal to identify a ball but what if a FC or opponent does not request him to?

[Gary Hill]

I have always understood this but cannot find a rule which says so.
Decision 27/13 refers to a refusal to identify a ball but what if a FC or opponent does not request him to?

A fellow-competitor need not request the player to identify the ball.

A ball found is the player's ball unless the ball is identified as not belonging to the player or cannot be identified as the player's ball.

[jvincent]

Where in the original question did you get the impression that he cannot get to his ball to try to identify it?

It was implied from the "dense brush" and "can't". You cleared up my question later in the thread.

[mberube]

What ruling are you looking for?

Whether or not you can refuse to identify it or whether or not you have to walk 10 feet to look at it?

Whether or not you can refuse to identify.

If there is no specific written rule stating that you must identify a ball if you spot a ball in the region where you hit yours, then how can you say that’s what you must do?

If you must identify then there must be a ruling. If not then any player can challenge the ruling. If a rule cannot be identify then there is no rule. At least that’s what I would says. If not, anybody can make up a rule.

Mike

[Gary Hill]

Whether or not you can refuse to identify.

If there is no specific written rule stating that you must identify a ball if you spot a ball in the region where you hit yours, then how can you say that’s what you must do?

If you must identify then there must be a ruling. If not then any player can challenge the ruling. If a rule cannot be identify then there is no rule. At least that’s what I would says. If not, anybody can make up a rule.

Mike

Decision 27/13 Refusal to Identify Ball
Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?
A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player’s ball.
If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee — Rule 34-3. In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7.

[Kilroy]

A ball found is the player's ball unless the ball is identified as not belonging to the player or cannot be identified as the player's ball.

That's a pretty confusing statement. Maybe I just can't read.

[Gary Hill]

That's a pretty confusing statement. Maybe I just can't read.

If a ball is found, the player is required to identify it.
If the player refuses to identify it, he is disqualified.

[Kilroy]

Thanks Gary.

[AAA]

Decision 27/13 Refusal to Identify Ball
Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?
A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player’s ball.
If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee — Rule 34-3. In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7.

Question deleted. I missed your response #18

[Gary Hill]

THis is being pedantic but the actual words leave a hole.
What happens if the opponent or FC waive their right to ask the player to identify his ball. They are not breaking a rule of golf as there is no compulsion on them. Nor has the player lied about the status of the ball.

An opponent or fellow-competitor is under NO obligation to ask a player to identify his ball.

It is solely the player's responsibility to play the correct ball.

[1972Apex]

An opponent or fellow-competitor is under NO obligation to ask a player to identify his ball.

It is solely the player's responsibility to play the correct ball.

In fact, golf is a game of honor. An opponent should not have to call you on anything. It is after all your own integrity at stake, as well as the match.

[el tigre]

Thanks Gary,

That’s what I thought but I can’t find the ruling. Did you find it?

Mike

12-2. Identifying Ball

The responsibility for playing the proper ball rests with the player. Each player should put an identification mark on his ball. If the ball in the bush is yours, it is the proper ball. It is your responsibility to play the proper ball, therefore you must make a reasonable effort to determine if the ball in the bush is the proper one (i.e., your ball). Make sense??

[Gary Hill]

Make sense??

Apparently only to me.

[1972Apex]

Just out of curiousity Gary. If I pump one so deep into the woods that I don't even want to bother to try to look for it, and just go ahead and play a provisional is that OK?
Also, if I have a whacky opponent who goes 30 yards into the woods and by some miracle actually finds my ball what the heck would I do? Waste 20 shots trying to hack thru the woods back to somewhere playable?
I realize the latter is an unlikely scenario, but I'd just like to know.