Need Ruling on a Bizarre Situation

[KOKO72]

My buddy and I had a small money match going on today. We came to the 18th hole at the Marshes and he was 2 strokes up. He hits his second shot from a fairway bunker and the ball ends up in the left hand brush near the cartpath about 100 yrds from the green. The left hand side is staked with white stakes (ob) but where his ball crossed there were 2 red stakes within the line of white stakes. I contend that the ball is OB as it clearly crossed over. He contends that the red stakes constitute a hazard. I don't think that the red stakes should be there.

I suggested he plays 2 balls (1 as OB) and the other as red stake penalty area and then get a ruling from the pro at the clubhouse. Pro was non commital therefore I have come to the experts on the forum....What's the ruling?

BTW red stake ball we tie Ob ball I win.

[jvincent]

I'm looking at where I think you are talking about on Google Earth.

The most likely scenario is that it was improperly marked. You shouldn't have red stakes in the same line as the white stakes.

Are you sure they were actually in line? What you could have is the red stakes in front of the white. In that scenario if the ball crosses the red stake line it is in the penalty area as long as it is not across the white stake line.

The other important question is did the ball end up on the other side of the white stakes? If yes, then it doesn't really matter where the red stakes were.

[KOKO72]

Actually there were a line of white stakes, 1 red stake, 1 white stake, another red stake all in the same line. I think it was just not marked properly. We did not find the original ball as the brush was very thick but judging by the speed it went in it was definitely on the other side of the stakes.

[gbower]

I know that area as it has come up in a number of tournaments that I've officiated there. The key that we have come up with is that the ball must be found past the white stakes to be known to be in the red penalty area. The white stakes are defining the edge of the golf course property and go up to the little path that runs to the left. There may be a stake misplaced but the white does stop at the corner and goes left. During out tournaments we never had anyone go that far left so never became a problem but we were prepared to call it out of bounds unless the ball was found or it was 100% known that it flew into the penalty area but that was usually going to be difficult to know as the stroke to that area was a very long shot.

[KOKO72]

We could not find the ball in the dense brush but we do know with 100% certainty that it did cross as all 3 players saw the flight of the ball. So from your explanation of the rule above, he should count it as an OB ball and would then be playing 5 from where it crossed the ob line?

[Colin L]

The Local Rules should define boundaries. What do they say about this area?

Also, two red stakes can only define a line, not an area. You need at least three to mark out a penalty area. As described - or rather as I read it - the red stakes make no sense.

On the other hand, the plan of the hole from the club website looks very clear.

marshes 18th.jpg

According to the plan there is a boundary to the left and a penalty area on the right. There is no indication of a penalty area on the left.

[Koo]

AFAIK white and red stakes can be inline if they share a boundary. The plan of the 18th doesn't completely show the area in question. Look at the plan for the 9th. Never been there, but could this represent the scenario?
2019-08-03 23_41_33-Untitled _ - SMART Notebook.png

[eyeping]

If the ball is OB it is stroke & distance and he would be playing 4 from the bunker. Unless the course has the new local rule in place for lost or OB ball then he would be hitting 5 from the fairway near the white stake area when he takes his relief.

[Colin L]

I know that area as it has come up in a number of tournaments that I've officiated there. The key that we have come up with is that the ball must be found past the white stakes to be known to be in the red penalty area. The white stakes are defining the edge of the golf course property and go up to the little path that runs to the left. There may be a stake misplaced but the white does stop at the corner and goes left. During out tournaments we never had anyone go that far left so never became a problem but we were prepared to call it out of bounds unless the ball was found or it was 100% known that it flew into the penalty area but that was usually going to be difficult to know as the stroke to that area was a very long shot.

Could you explain how you know what area is marked by only two red stakes? Can anyone?