How honest are you?

[Gary Hill]

Waiting until it is your turn to play before:
1. deciding what club to use.
2. surveying putting line.
3. getting head cover off
4. getting tee from bag parked at cart.

"Herd" mentality. Everyone in group looking for each others balls when all balls may be lost. Some balls are easily found. Only the ones that are not may require help from others in the group.

Group standing around discussing how lame/good/bad etc . each shot was.

Playing strict "honor" rule instead of "ready" golf.
(There is no penalty in stroke play for playing out of turn)

Whole group standing around bar cart instead of one playing while the others get you a drink.

Waiting to for the group ahead to clear the fairway when they are already 400 yards away. (very common)

Having to go back to front of putting green to retrieve bag after play of hole is finished. Bags should be placed on back of putting green near exit to next teeing ground.

Marking score cards while on putting green preventing next group from hitting.

Giving swing lessons on the course. (mixed groups usually)

And you won't believe this one:
Walking back to the tee with ONE ball and hitting THAT ball O.B.

[GrantTotten]

Thanks for the list. I'm relieved to see that my groups never do any of these things. Now if we could just get everyone else on board...

Grant

[jimrobin]

I'm stepping in here, and I have to admit that I see Garry's point, but I want to relay an experience that happen to me just 2 days ago and probably has happened to everybody.
(This is after I've been following this form/topic for the last week.)

I was playing a friendly round with some buddies. We were on the 10th hole at a course down near Hawkesbury. It is a par 4 with a slight dogleg right. I hit my drive over some trees exactly where I wanted to hit it. All 3 of my "fellow-competitors" said "GREAT SHOT" as my ball was in the air. After I looked for 5 minutes I could not find my ball and proceeded to return to the tee. My ball had to be in the rough somewhere just beside the fairway. My fellow-competitors would not allow me to go back to the tee and made me to hit it from where we figured it should be. They told me I take the game too seriously and might not call me to play again.
Now I have a problem with a few of things here:

1. Garry's point is that I cheated and can't use this score for handicap purposes.
2. My buddies are mad at me and think I'm a golf freak and have no life.
3. I'm being penalized for something that a PGA player would never incounter because they have galleries, marshalls, ball finders (whatever they're called), caddies, etc. to help find their golf balls.
4. Now I know their mindset (my buddies) is like probably like most golfers in the Ottawa region and I bet 80-85% of the golfers in Ottawa would not go back to the tee (I'm estimating but I think probably pretty close), so again I'm at a disadvantage if I did go back to the tee.

I guess I should of hit a provisional, but if I did on that tee, I probably should of hit about 12 other provisionals during the round and that was my only lost ball. Then you include my 3 buddies and they too probably should of hit about 12 also (maybe more). So if you look at it that would be about 50 provisionals from our foursome, which would add at least 1/2 to our round (maybe more). Then if every foursome hit 50 provisionals........
My point is Garry, where do you draw the line?????

[fireice]

After reading most of the posts in this thread, I have to add my 2 cents. I live on the West Coast and during the winter I definitely use "winter rules" (I improve my lie, take relief from pools of water etc). The rest of the year I try to abide by the "rules", but hey most golfers are going to take the odd mulligan, kick it into the fairway, alter the rules in some way. I think most people just want to have a good time(Only you will know your true score). That's what golf is about and shouldn't be taken so seriously, we're not tour players for god's sake. Things will always be different for different situations (tournament, league play, buddies out who got a breakaway from the kids & wife etc.)

Hope everyone has a great weekend, go out and golf, have some fun.

[NoBack]

I agree with all of Gary's items as far as the slow play and ready golf and beleive if ALL weeknd golfers did this it would be mcuh more enjoyable for all. But I also agree with jimrobin's comments.....

I guess I should of hit a provisional, but if I did on that tee, I probably should of hit about 12 other provisionals during the round and that was my only lost ball. Then you include my 3 buddies and they too probably should of hit about 12 also (maybe more). So if you look at it that would be about 50 provisionals from our foursome, which would add at least 1/2 to our round (maybe more). Then if every foursome hit 50 provisionals........

There must be a way to compramise for the average everyday weekend golfer, NOT for competion but for recreation.

[Gary Hill]

jimrobin -

1. You CAN use your score for handicap purposes. You just mark your score for that hole as X.
For the average handicap player, this would likely result in entering 2 over par as your handicap score for that hole.

2. Maybe you need new buddies. Do they MAKE you give short putts also?
3. I can quote you plenty of examples where PGA players go back to the tee. Greg Norman in a recent Masters comes to mind.
4. How are you disadvantaged by going back to the tee?

re: My point is Garry, where do you draw the line?????

You dont draw a line. You use common sense.

Your going back to the tee SHOULD NOT have added ONE SECOND to the round.

Tell your buddies you are going back to the tee and for them to play on.
You go back to the tee, re-hit, and keep hitting until you SURELY catch up to them on green.

[Kilroy]

Originally posted by Gary Hill
You CAN use your score for handicap purposes. You just mark your score for that hole as X.
For the average handicap player, this would likely result in entering 2 over par as your handicap score for that hole.

Nice tee shot lost in the rough = max on the hole :errrr

[Gary Hill]

I was just making the point that even though the Rules were NOT followed (he did NOT go back to the tee), the whole round is not disregarded.

The handicap system has built in allowances for single specific "transgressions".

[Andy4Par]

Ok...I've been reading all the comments regarding honesty, and I consider myself to be rather honest when it comes to golf...However, my primary purpose is to just play,and have fun and the people I play with respect that. I realized long ago that I can not make a living playing golf, I don't play tournaments for money, I don't brag when I score lower than the person I play with...I have never read the Rules of Golf, I try to play to the best of my ability as I interpret the rules. That being said, if I hit a ball out of bounds, I hit another, if I hit a ball and cannot find it when I know it should be Right there, I drop take a stroke and play on.

[Gary Hill]

If you want to hit a ball around on a golf course to have fun; FINE.
I have no problem with that. Never had. Never will.

I do have a problem when you start out by saying you consider yourself to be rather honest when it comes to golf and immediately thereafter say you knowingly break the Rules.

To whom are you trying to justify your actions?

What is wrong with saying: "I don't play by the Rules. I just have fun." ????
This is exactly what 90% of golfer do; THEY JUST WONT ADMIT TO IT.

This is exactly my main contention with most of the posts in this thread which can be summed up as follows:

"I am an honest golfer. I have my own "mini" set of Rules that I stick to religiously."

There are only two categories:

1. I play golf by the Rules.
2. I do not play golf by the Rules.

You are only fooling YOURSELF if you think there is a third.

[jimrobin]

Gary:
You are right, you either play by the rules or don't play by the rules.

But I think the point everyone is trying to make is, for the weekend golfer it is not practical (or as you say common sense) to hit 12 provisional balls per golfer. I know the group behind me won't like it, nor will the guys I'm playing with.

Like in the situation I used above. We are already at a disadvantage (vs PGA) of not having galleries lining the fairways, marshalls, spotters with little flags, caddies, AND TV CAMERAS THAT CAN ZOOM IN ON THE LIE YOU HAVE. So why penalize us even more (stroke & distance) when we lose a ball beside the fairway (or a couple of courses in this area "in the fairway")

By not going back to the tee I do not consider cheating. We are just trying to even the playing field. Take a 1 shot lost ball penalty and hit from where you think the ball should be. PGA players would not even lose that ball, so you are already being penalized 1 stroke more then them. I just don't think you should penalized yourself "distance" also. Trying to get apples to apples, oranges to oranges the best way you can.

Yes, I'll hit a provisional when I think I'm OB, close to OB, or in the woods, but I'm not going to hit a provisional when the guys I'm playing with tell me "Great Shot", but I can't see my ball from the tee. That's ridiculous and impractical. My glass is half full, not half empty. I plan on finding that ball.

To go further on this situation, because I took 5 minutes to look for my ball, the group behind us were now on the tee. I declared my ball lost and hit another. After, I drove back about 10 yards to have one last look for the hell of it, and a ball came sailing over our heads from the group behind us. So I know going back to the tee would not have been very impressive or practical. We were not holding that group up either, that was the 1st time they had to wait to hit (probably because we grabbed a sandwich & drink to go at the turn, and they didn't, plus the 5 min looking).

One question is, what if each player had to go back to the tee even once. That's 4 times. I know the group behind us would be telling the marshalls 1st chance. Even if your 4some keeps playing, the theory is you are holding up the course, and that marshall will be coming to have a talk with us.

4. How are you disadvantaged by going back to the tee?
Because 90+% of the golfers I know, would not bother too. I'm the only one penalizing myself stroke and distance (handicapp purposes around the Ottawa area).

No I don't need new buddies. The 40 to 50 I have, would all do the samething. Just like 90% of the golfers in this region would.

So in closing, now that I think about it, "I CHEAT" and will continue to "CHEAT". If playing a casual round with buddies, I will not go back to the tee if I lose a ball in the rough (beside the fairway). I tried once, but I doubt I'll try it again (unless I'm ever playing with Garry).

But thanks for the handicapp advice I forgot about that.

JR

[Gary Hill]

[em69]

I DON"T PLAY BY THE RULES....there I said it. I feel better.

Oh by the way if some golfer ever came walking bac to the tee wanting to hit a provisional while I am getting ready to play my tee shot.....I would be asking him if I can play through.

[spidey]

Interesting point about getting drinks at the cart.... If the marshall sees you buying a round of drinks and sandwiches at the beer cart, nothing is said, even if a space opens up in front of you, but... if your foursome falls behind by returning to the tee once or twice, then you can be sure the group behind, and probably the marshall will make an issue of it.

It's ok to take time to spend money on the course, but not ok to play by the rules????

Who cares if you let a group play through because you're playing by the rules. In fact, I have more respect for groups that let me (my group) play through, than for ones who cheat just so they can stay ahead of me and not get in trouble.

I agree that the rules mentality is only tolerated during tournaments, or specified rounds, and that it is common for Saturday/Sunday golf groups to play by whatever their flavour of "accepted rules" are. In fact, even the marshals will support the "abbreviated" set of rules, especially when it speeds up play.

It seems to me that the conflict is between playing strictly by the rules, and speeding up play. Some people here are implying that not playing by the rules speeds up play. I suppose it's possible to speed up play by not playing by the rules. And furthermore, the worse your golfing skills are, the more rules you will employ during a round, so therefore the more opportunities to save time by just dropping a ball or playing from a better place or a better lie.

I agree with Gary. Play by the rules. If you can't, take an X. If you mark down honest scores, first, you'll feel better, and second you'll have a more accurate idea how you'll score when you play in tournaments. OTOH, if you want to play by your own rules, then don't come in here and tell us how honest you are. I'm sure your buddies will not shun you, and you can still brag about all your shots as much as you want over beers.

Golf is a difficult game. It wasn't designed to be easy for everybody to master. That's what makes it such a big deal when you play well. Breaking the rules to save face and write down a lower score than reality shows our humanity, humans are not perfect. But just because you write down a lower score than you actually shot does not make you a better golfer.

Play by the rules.
Help stamp out slow play.
Don't forget that some days, the breaks go for you instead of against you.

[em69]

:sleep

[Gary Hill]

Originally posted by em69
Oh by the way if some golfer ever came walking bac to the tee wanting to hit a provisional while I am getting ready to play my tee shot.....I would be asking him if I can play through.

You CANNOT go back to the tee to hit a provisional ball.

A provisional ball MUST be played BEFORE the player or his partner goes forward to search for the orginal ball.


As far as asking to play through, I would politely decline your request.

Most good courses prohibit their marshals from allowing "playing through" unless the course is virtually empty.

It just causes confusion and does not address the real problem of the offending slow group.

On a busy day when tee-offs are nose to tail, you have nowhere to "play through" to.

[em69]

Ooops 'scuse me. 3 from the tee then.:shakehead
If you realized you lost your ball...you decide you have no choice but to walk back to the tee too drive another one.

"Prohibit"?? Where in the world do you play this lovely game of ours Gary? I've played 90% of courses in this city and never have I heard a course prohibit "playing through". I've even seen many signs stating to allow slow golfers play through.

I cannot understand how you feel walking back to the tee does not slow play down. When you walk back to the tee the players in front of you are already off the green. Guess what...that makes you an entire hole behind. And from my experience....most marshalls either begin to get frustrated when you are a hole behind or at the better courses, they actually ask you to pick up your ball.

You say below...
1. "You go back to the tee, re-hit, and keep hitting until you SURELY catch up to them on green."
"

As I said, that would not happen if I'm on the tee waiting to tee-off. No way would I stand there and watch a guy hammer 2,3,4,5, balls into the woods all for the sake of "wanting to play by the rules".

2. "Your going back to the tee SHOULD NOT have added ONE SECOND to the round."

Walking back to the tee does not even add one second to a round? How do you figure? Donovan Bailey can't even run that fast.

It seems to me that you are playing at a private course where it is more convenient to play in the manner that you do. I could be wrong...let's hope I'm not.

Keep the pace of play and be respectful to others.

[spidey]

Gee, Gary, I've never heard of such marshalls..... prohibit from playing through???

The first time I played Stonebridge, the marshalls facilitated our playing through because the group in front was so far behind!!!

Marshalls are notoriously ineffective at getting slow groups to speed up. They have no leverage, and they're not trained in negotiation with grumpy weekend golfers. In fact I find more apathy from marshals who would rather spend their time schmoozing with the cart girl and collecting lost balls in the woods, than I find active marshalling to facilitate expeditious play.

RulesNut says...
As far as asking to play through, I would politely decline your request.

I suspect you're saying you would politely decline a request to play through based on the assumption that you are not behind. But if you are walking, and you have gone all the way back to the tee, it will probably take you at least 7 minutes to get all the way up to the green, and your group has already spent 5 to 7 minutes on the hole plus up to 5 minutes to look for the lost ball. So you have already spent 17 to 19 minutes on a hole that should take 13 or 14 minutes.

BUT it is printed on the scorecard of nearly ALL courses in the area with the rest of the local rules... "If you fall behind one full hole, you should allow the following group to play through"..... so....

This is therefore a local rule of etiquette.... why would you not abide by this local rule?

[Gary Hill]

okay - I will try to explain this one last time.

I am in a group of 4 and we are not behind.
You are in the following group.

My group hits their tee shots. I cannot find my ball.

I tell my group to play on. I go back to the tee.

By the time I get back to the tee, your group is ready to hit, as the rest of my group has cleared the landing area.

All five of us hit our tee shots and all proceed forward to the balls.

Your group waits (a bit) as I hit my next shot and catch up to my group.

I catch my group at the green. (they have to play three times as many shots as I do)

When I and my group clear the green, your group has already hit all your tee shots and is waiting in the fairway.

No way will our group get behind or set your group back 19 minutes.

[em69]

Sorry Gary...but you are living in a dream world if you think this can happen as smoothly and flawlessly as you suggest it should.

As I said earlier, you must be playing a private course in order for this happen without conflict from the marshalls or other players behind you.

[spidey]

We all appreciate your presence here Gary, but you are human, and just as apt as the rest of us to misquote others....

Gary says...
No way will our group get behind or set your group back 19 minutes.

but the actual quote was...

spidey originally said...
So you have already spent 17 to 19 minutes on a hole that should take 13 or 14 minutes.

So the difference I'm talking about is between 3 and 6 minutes. If each of your group of four happen to do that once in the same round, without gaining back any of the lost time, that will cost you between 12 and 24 minutes.

And I'm sure we all wish that the people who lose balls without playing a provisional were as conscientious and expeditious as you describe in your scenario.

[Gary Hill]

- Sorry em69...but you are living in a dream world if you think this can't happen as smoothly and flawlessly as I suggest it should.

spidey - as long a you continue to post worse case scenarios, I will continue to post best case scenarios.

[spidey]

Bravo

[Kilroy]

Point for Gary :bablefish

[spidey]

Oh, gimme a break.....

Gary admits that he exaggerates as much as I do, but he gets a point.....

I propose the most conservative scenarios, and he assumes away all the possibilities in order to provide his oversimplified scenarios.... why don't I get the point?

[em69]

Point for Spidey

[Kilroy]

er... ahh... 'cause he's wearin' my colours???

Besides Spidey; I thought he had ya one up there, comeback wise

[St Andrew]

Well, after reading all of this it sure looks to me like we need some "recreational" rules so we can all stop cheating.

[NoBack]

There should in my mind be some rules that are just for the pros, as they get extra eyes on the course for that lost ball scenario that we as recreational golfers do not get.

[em69]

Oh noo...here we go again.