Compete or just play your own game?

[Kilroy]

My argument is that it's easy to perform under pressure if one is getting more strokes than they really should be.

If one were getting more strokes than deserved, then where is the preassure?

[1972Apex]

If one were getting more strokes than deserved, then where is the preassure?

My point exactly...

[mpare]

I can well understand that our views might differ. You're certainly entitled to yours. I too have been sandbagged over the years. With nearly 50 years of golfing under my belt it would be amazing had that not happened. Nevertheless, I still operate on the assumption that individuals against whom I may be playing for a bit of loose change and who properly enter their adjusted scores are entitled to receive the strokes to which they are entitled. That is as it should be under the spirit and intent of the Rules of Golf. More importantly, it forces me to really pay attention. As I said before, I hate to lose even if only a few cents. That adrenaline is even greater in sanctioned tournaments when every shot you take counts. Even when I played badly in those tournaments, the rush I felt more than made up for any disappointment over bad shots or bad strategy. Besides, if you want to really improve play in some tournaments. I guarantee that even if you play poorly, your game will ultimately be the better for it.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Mike.
Just for the record, my feelings on this are not predicated on my experience with cheats because I don't play in tournaments or for money. ...

[Kilroy]

My point exactly...

So your point is that it's easy when cheating removes the preassure. Can't disagree with that.

My point is (and has been) that can can be more enjoyable when there IS preassure IMHO. Cheating was not part of the scenario proposed by the poll.

Honestly I feel the discussion has been hijacked by your relentless assertion that to play with handicaps is tantamount to cheating.

[fundonny]

This thread is no fun.

[1972Apex]

So your point is that it's easy when cheating removes the preassure. Can't disagree with that.

My point is (and has been) that can can be more enjoyable when there IS preassure IMHO. Cheating was not part of the scenario proposed by the poll.

Honestly I feel the discussion has been hijacked by your relentless assertion that to play with handicaps is tantamount to cheating.

Cheating is too strong a word. I wouldn't call it that. I would call it only playing up to one's potential when cash is on the line.
Yeah there are cheaters. Some people intentionally do not enter their low scores, or tank a practice round to help their handicap. Those people I would label cheaters.
As for the folks who don't play well when playing a regular handicap round but excel when the 'pressure' is on in match play, well I guess it's not literally cheating. But if you have two guys and both are regularly shooting their handicap or better when cash is on the line, how are the rest of us supposed to tell the difference between the true sandbaggers and the guys 'who just play better under pressure'? I would not label those folks cheaters but I don't think they are being honest with themselves about their abilities. They already know going into a match that they are probably going to match or better their handicap. They know they 'play well under pressure.' That says something right there. Is it ability under pressure or the confidence in knowing that you're going to play better than a handicap that was not established under the same conditions?
Perhaps I feel this way because I am always competing against myself. Match Play or not I'm going to give 100%. If I shoot 85 it's because that was the best I had that day, not because the round 'didn't mean anything. This means my handicap when I play a match is going to reflect my true ability. If I'm playing against someone who doesn't really try when they play a regular handicap round I'm most likely 3 strokes down before I start.
And what's with all the talk about pressure anyway? No one here is playing on the PGA Tour for a living. 10 bucks is not going to make a whit of difference in my life, so the thought of money causing more pressure than a match just for bragging rights or a beer never even enters my mind. I'll still have a nice dinner either way
BTW I don't think that playing a match with handicaps that reflect one's true ability is in any way tantamount to cheating.

[mpare]

1972Apex, it just occurred to me that one reason that we are looking at this differently is that, as you say, you don't play in tournaments or play for money. I'll leave the latter alone as that is your business. With respect to the former, I would urge you to play in some real tournaments where the Rules of Golf are adhered to strictly. Assuming that you care about the event and your presence in it, I guarantee that you'll soon learn the difference between playing as hard as you can by yourself and playing for keeps when under fire in a tournament. You will be amazed at how much more your attuned your senses will be. There is no comparison. Try it. You might like it. And by the way, it matters not that it's not a PGA tour event. The adrenaline should kick in, if you're in the least competitive. It always did for me whether I was playing in a 36 hole regional event or the NB or NS Amateur. I suspect you would be the same.

[jeffc]

This thread is no fun.

That's cause u ain't gettin any strokes

[sensfan63]

you'll soon learn the difference between playing as hard as you can by yourself and playing for keeps when under fire in a tournament. You will be amazed at how much more your attuned your senses will be.

I would also add:

It's amazing, on average, how much higher the scores are in said tournament. Handicaps go out the window.

Just watch the Citizen tournament. Supposed 3, 4, 5 handicap players shooting in the mid-80s.

Tournaments are simply a different deal. Fairways get tighter, the hole gets smaller. It is the exception that is the golfer who plays better in tournaments.

[DenisO]

I don't know how the 'cheaters' do it. Every time I shoot a really good score I'm excited about entering it in and seeing my handicap improve. I also want others to know what skill level I'm at, so they can see my incredible progress, haha I guess it's just about money to some people and not at all about personal improvement.

[jeffc]

I don't know how the 'cheaters' do it. Every time I shoot a really good score I'm excited about entering it in and seeing my handicap improve. I also want others to know what skill level I'm at, so they can see my incredible progress, haha I guess it's just about money to some people and not at all about personal improvement.

ditto....i always want to see how a good score will affect my index. I am trying to get lower, not higher

[Hearzy]

This is one hell of a topic that my post started!

[Chambokl]

I would also add:

It's amazing, on average, how much higher the scores are in said tournament. Handicaps go out the window.

Just watch the Citizen tournament. Supposed 3, 4, 5 handicap players shooting in the mid-80s.

Tournaments are simply a different deal. Fairways get tighter, the hole gets smaller. It is the exception that is the golfer who plays better in tournaments.

It is a lot harder under tournament set-up. The course is set-up differently when a tournament is on...it is easier to make mistakes, so higher score. That is why when you enter your score (for hdcp purpose) from a tournament you have to indicate that it is a tournament round and the round counts for double (or 2 rounds).

[mberube]

It is a lot harder under tournament set-up. The course is set-up differently when a tournament is on...it is easier to make mistakes, so higher score. That is why when you enter your score (for hdcp purpose) from a tournament you have to indicate that it is a tournament round and the round counts for double (or 2 rounds).

And don't forget that in tournament rounds every shot counts no matter how badly you play a hole compared to regular play where doubles is the max you enter on your index.

[stevek]

ditto....i always want to see how a good score will affect my index. I am trying to get lower, not higher

Ditto squared.

One good 9-hole round this week combined with another previous and my Cap drops almost two.

[justsomeguy]

And don't forget that in tournament rounds every shot counts no matter how badly you play a hole compared to regular play where doubles is the max you enter on your index.

Just so there is no confusion, ESC applies to tournament rounds as well:

For handicap purposes, all Section 4 adjustments, including Equitable Stroke Control, must be applied to all scores including tournament scores.

In reality, every shot always counts. It's just that there can often be a difference between "your score" and "your score for handicap purposes".

[mberube]

What I meant was that in tournament play, the score you sing is your real score triples, quads and higher scores included. You must finish the whole no matter what or else you are DQ. It’s normal to see 80+ rounds from 5-6 cappers in those conditions.

[jonf]

What I meant was that in tournament play, the score you sing is your real score triples, quads and higher scores included. You must finish the whole no matter what or else you are DQ. It’s normal to see 80+ rounds from 5-6 cappers in those conditions.

Well, personally, while I only enter doubles for capping purposes, I still play out the hole and record my score according to the rules. ie, I shot a 96 at greensmere the other day, and while I recorded it as a 91 for capping purposes (or at least...i will once the course has a slope and rating), it's still a 96.

[Sakuraba]

What I meant was that in tournament play, the score you sing is your real score triples, quads and higher scores included. You must finish the whole no matter what or else you are DQ. It’s normal to see 80+ rounds from 5-6 cappers in those conditions.

Not to mention an 80 from the tips at one of the tough Citizen courses I think might make you a 4 or 5 handicap.

[mpare]

And when you're playing in a good tournament, there's nothing quite like knowing that your hole by hole scores will be posted for all to see to tighten your muscles a bit during play.

[Chambokl]

And when you're playing in a good tournament, there's nothing quite like knowing that your hole by hole scores will be posted for all to see to tighten your muscles a bit during play.

Absolutely true.... Last year played our tournament (3 days). I am a 9.5... so usually I am in the 2nd or 3rd flight.... I ended up in the 1st flight (82-82)... I knew I had no chance of winning anything... but I couldn't care less.... played with the big boys on Monday and shot 81... I was quite happy with these rounds under tournament condition...

Played a round with MPare about 3 years ago. On the first tee he ask me if we are betting something... OK... what is your HDCP... we agree and that is it. We played, had a great time on he won the last hole to tie... The point, at the end of the day it is all about having fun. I don't bet to make money but to put more pressure... that is so much fun! I also find the best time is to discuss (argue) about strokes... especially when it is a 2-man competition.

[sensfan63]

Not to mention an 80 from the tips at one of the tough Citizen courses I think might make you a 4 or 5 handicap.

I doubt they are rated that tough (and if they are, someone needs to re-rate!). Anyone know the course ratings?

[mberube]

I doubt they are rated that tough (and if they are, someone needs to re-rate!). Anyone know the course ratings?

I looked at my RCGA game stats from last year and here are the ratings that I got on my best rounds on those courses. Just to give an idea about scores from players in competition.

Talon – Gold tees – 7046Y – score 81 – differential 5.7
Predator – Gold tees – 7009Y – score 79 - differential 6.1
Kanata – Gold tees – 6714Y – score 81 - differential 7.6
Eagle Creek – Gold tees – 7093Y – score 80 - differential 5

[sensfan63]

I looked at my RCGA game stats from last year and here are the ratings that I got on my best rounds on those courses. Just to give an idea about scores from players in competition.

Talon – Gold tees – 7046Y – score 81 – differential 5.7
Predator – Gold tees – 7009Y – score 79 - differential 6.1
Kanata – Gold tees – 6714Y – score 81 - differential 7.6
Eagle Creek – Gold tees – 7093Y – score 80 - differential 5

I won't speak to Talon or Predator because I've never played either course.

Kanata looks like it's rated in the neighborhood of 73.4. For a par-70, that's a really high rating. But, I do find the course to be one of the more difficult in the area, so I'll go along with that one.

Eagle Creek rated as 75? Nonsense. Most of the fairways are massive, the par-5s are reachable, and the greens are not overly undulating. I mean, when the pros played it back when the Canadian Tour had a tournament there (circa 2000), the winning scores were routinely 16 to 20 under par. Someone's giving that course a little too much credit, IMO.

[mberube]

The best way to prove the rating wrong is to calculate you handicap from the tips and play a few rounds and try to equal or beat your handicap from the tips. Play 5 rounds and then you can really judge if the rating is wrong. I would be surprised if you would beat your hdcp once from the tips. EC is not that easy for amateurs. That course is tight and long from the tips. The landing areas are well designed. If you are a straight driver and never off your game from the tee then yes the course should play easier. I always play from the tips and I rarely play at or under my cap.

[goochy]

Eagle Creek is rated 73.8 with a slope of 139 from the tips.

Kanata is 72.5/127.

With all due respect I suspect the people the RCGA send to rate courses know what they are doing. If someone finds one course easier than another even if the ratings disagree it could easily be as much to do with the course just "suiting their eye" or their game.

[nokids]

Since we're talking about slopes in here:

What's the deal with Manderley's slope? It's like 129 from the whites but I dont find the course to be that difficult. My own personal opinion is that Meadows (111 slope) and Greensmere (116 slope) are just as tough as Manderley. Heck Loch March is twice as hard and the slopes are identical.

[adam]

Ya why the heck is Manderley rated so hard? That seems a little weird.
Anyways the other thing about playing match play and giving strokes is that the strokes are given on individual holes making the players play different strategies on different holes (aggressive vs safe depending on different scenarios)
If you want to have a true "even match" try playing stroke play and just add the strokes to the total. I'd be willing to bet the lower cap player takes that match 9 times out of 10 if strokes aren't given.

[XTOUR]

Not sure about that! Many of us have blow up holes....I'd say probably 7/10.

[adam]

Each player will probably have his/her own blow-up hole within the match. If you're playing stroke play instead of match play you will not try to hit the 3wood between the branches off the pinestraw though to try and win a hole.
Smart players will stick to the shots they know they can hit and will probably play better because of it.