Searching for ball - identifying ball

[hackzaw]

If you hit your ball into thick bush/trees, and play a provisional, when searching for your original ball, if you see a ball in the bush, do you HAVE to identify the ball to see if it might be yours? In some cases, you may see a ball deep in a bush, and know you're way better off playing the provisional. Once you've seen the ball, do you have to try to get in there and identify it? In some cases, it may be near impossible to get to a ball.

On a related note, when searching for balls, are you allowed to ask whoever is helping look for your ball, to only look in places where you'll be able to make a shot. In other words, "don't bother searching under logs or in the deep crap"

[goochy]

We were having this chat after the NCGT Ryder Cup yesterday. It is my understanding that you can simply choose to not look for your ball and play your provisional as lying 3. However on the pro tours where they have spectators and spotters and cameras I don't think they have much choice.

Don't forget, you can declare your ball unplayable anywhere on the course at anytime (it is the player who decides this)...If you declare you ball unplayable one of your options is always to go back and rehit from where you hit your original shot (taking the penalty stroke of course). So if you hit it "in the crap" and find it you can declare it unplayable and go back and hit again (or I assume play your provisional).

There are some smart Rules guys on here so if I am mistaken can someone please correct me

[Sakuraba]

I think that once you find your original your provisional is no longer an option. You can declare the ball unplayable, but I though your relief was only 2 clublengths.

[jvincent]

Answering a couple of questions.

1. Yes, you have to positively identify the ball as yours.

2. If you declare a ball unplayable after finding it, you cannot play your provisional ball. You have to go back and hit another one. The provisional is only in case you can't find the original.

[jvincent]

I think that once you find your original your provisional is no longer an option. You can declare the ball unplayable, but I though your relief was only 2 clublengths.

Relief for an unplayable is either two clublengths no nearer the hole OR as far back as you want keeping the ball between you and the hole.

[Kilroy]

So if you hit it "in the crap" and find it you can declare it unplayable and go back and hit again (or I assume play your provisional).

You can't play your provisional if you find the original ball. You must proceed under the unplayable ball rule. One option is to return and replay the shot, but you can't play the provisional.


To the original question there are relevant 3 decisions ...

27/13 Refusal to Identify Ball
Q. A player purposely refuses to identify a ball as his. What can the opponent or a fellow-competitor do in such a case?
A. An opponent or fellow-competitor has the right to be satisfied about the identification of a player's ball.
If a player has dishonestly not identified his ball, the opponent or fellow-competitor may refer the dispute to the Committee — Rule 34-3. In such a case, the Committee would be justified in imposing a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7.

27/14 Ball in Tree Identified But Not Retrieved
Q. A player's ball is lodged high in a tree. He identifies it with the aid of binoculars but is unable to retrieve it. Is the ball lost, in which case the player must invoke Rule 27-1?
A. No. Since the ball was identified, it was not lost — see Definition of "Lost Ball." The player may invoke the unplayable ball Rule (Rule 28).

27/15 Ball in Tree Visible But Not Identifiable
Q. A player is certain that his ball is lodged high in a tree. He can see a ball in the tree, but he cannot identify it as his ball. Is the player's ball lost, in which case he must proceed under Rule 27-1?
A. Yes.

So if you see a ball in a thicket you wouldn't want to play from, but can't be sure it's yours, think twice before going in after it. If you can identify as yours, it the ball is found.

You cannot stop someone from looking. You can ask that they not look there, but there is no violation if they do.

[goochy]

Sakuraba...If you declare it unplayable you can definately go back and rehit, you can also take relief at 2 clubs length or drop behind the point the ball is as far back as you like in line with the hole. If you are in deep woods i would think 2 club lengths would be the least attractive of your 3 options. (I only learned this yesterday myself by the way)

Thanks for clarify the provisional ball thing jvincent...it does seem a bit of a waste of time to trudge back to the tee and rehitting when you have already hit a provisional but I guess thats the rules.

[justsomeguy]

If you hit your ball into thick bush/trees, and play a provisional, when searching for your original ball, if you see a ball in the bush, do you HAVE to identify the ball to see if it might be yours? In some cases, you may see a ball deep in a bush, and know you're way better off playing the provisional. Once you've seen the ball, do you have to try to get in there and identify it? In some cases, it may be near impossible to get to a ball.

YOU do not have to look for a lost ball period, so if YOU see a ball in the woods you do not have to identify it. However, if your opponent or a FC sees a ball and asks you to identify it, then you must do so.

On a related note, when searching for balls, are you allowed to ask whoever is helping look for your ball, to only look in places where you'll be able to make a shot. In other words, "don't bother searching under logs or in the deep crap"

You can ask, but if and where they choose to look is totally up to them. If they find a ball, see above.

[justsomeguy]

Thanks for clarify the provisional ball thing jvincent...it does seem a bit of a waste of time to trudge back to the tee and rehitting when you have already hit a provisional but I guess thats the rules.

The problem is that when you decide which of your 3 options you're going to choose, you're not supposed to already know the outcome of any of them in advance.

[PapaPat]

Don't forget, you can declare your ball unplayable anywhere on the course at anytime (it is the player who decides this)...

No unplayables in Water Hazards or Lateral Water Hazards. Rule 26 is in charge here.

[XTOUR]

Wish I would have known that yesterday!!! Killed myself trying to get the ball out of bush and got eaten alive by the mosquitos. Glad we have a forum for some of these situations we are put in

[Indio]

Wish I would have known that yesterday!!! Killed myself trying to get the ball out of bush and got eaten alive by the mosquitos. Glad we have a forum for some of these situations we are put in

Don't you mean 'these situations I put myself in' ?

[LobWedge]

Just to clarify for goochy, XTOUR, Indio, and any other NCGT players here. By Rule, if you find your original ball after playing a provisional, you must abandon the provisional and either play the original ball as it lies, or proceed under one of the options in Rule 28. However, on the NCGT only, we have a Local Rule that allows you to declare your provisional ball in play (stroke and distance) if your original ball is found and you wish to proceed under 28a. This was added in consideration of Pace of Play, so that you don't have to go all the way back to where you played your previous stroke.

[AAA]

LW
I don't know what the NCGT is but the LR is of course in contravention of Rule 33-8.
What are the implications re the RCGA handicap rules?

[PapaPat]

LW

I don't know what the NCGT is but the LR is of course in contravention of Rule 33-8.
What are the implications re the RCGA handicap rules?

I would like to know what the NCGT is since it is often referred to in this forum. I'm interested in what level of player plays this tour and whether or not handicaps are used.

One of the problems LW and I have discussed in another context is that, in my opinion, due to a relatively weak position taken by the RCGA, ignoring of invalid rule concessions are becoming too common with regard to the use and administration of the RCGA Handicap System. The more flagrant examples usually occur in course setup, in particular the inappropriate use of red stakes. Again, the justification offered is almost always pace of play.

Lift, clean and place through the green is another example of something that is in fairly common use which technically should disqualify games played from being entered into the RCGA Handicap System as well.

I would be interested in how 'down the line' things are done outside of Ontario and Canada. I have heard the suggestion that the USGA and R&A have indicated that they are not amused with the RCGA in this regard. It is my experience that in the GAO (Golf Association of Ontario, the provincial arm of the RCGA), provincial events, very strict adherence to the RofG is maintained.

[Kilroy]

The NCGT is the National Capital Golf Tour. It's a fun / competitive tour with 10 events per season. They use their own handicapping system not official RCGA handicaps.

[PapaPat]

I guess that AAA and I would wonder whether or not players on this tour enter scores from it into their RCGA Handicaps? And, I am quite certain that the answer would be yes. Also, it would not appear to me that there would be enough bang for the buck in this particular rule bending. One common alternative is to implement a double par rule but, it comes with its own set of problems.

Do they also allow provisional use of Rule 26 options which is allowed under the rules? I have always felt that this is an awful authorized local rule, again because it allows the choice of which ball you wish to deal with. Or, do they just allow the use of an S&D provisional whenever a player does not like his situation?

I guess the reason I don't like this kind of thing is that the majority of players are confused enough already about how to play by the rules.

[Kilroy]

The majority of these players keep only unofficial handicaps.

Since the local rule was implemented they have gone to a stableford scoring system which pretty much eliminiates the need for this rule now that players are required to pick up after they reach 0 points. I expect the committee will be reviewing this and likely removing it in the future.

[PapaPat]

Pace of play is a constant struggle, particularly in Senior Leagues. Playing Stableford or its cousin Quota Points is a great way to address this challenge.

[mjf]

To be clear... If I see a ball that might be mine in a place that I don't want to hit from (because my provisional is sitting pretty in the middle of the fairway), I'm not obliged to identify it right?

[Kilroy]

I could not fid any specific language in the decisions covering the player's obligation to identify any ball spotted by the player himself during a search. If your FC or opponent asks you to identify a ball you must.

My take is that if you can readily identify a ball you spot while searching for your ball, you'd be obliged to do so, but you would not be expected to venture into thick bush, climb a tree or use binoculars in order to ID a ball that 'might' be yours but cannot be identified from your closest vantage point. However I am not 100% sure of that since I can't find confirmation in the rules.

[hoolio]

If you do not use any personalized identification marks on your ball and a FC asks you to identify a ball found, matching the model and number that you were playing, are you obliged to identify it as yours? You may be 90% certain, but if you have any doubt of it being yours, is it against the rules to say it is not and declare your ball lost?

[Kilroy]

Not an exact fit, but this indicates you'd have to consider it to be your ball.

12-2/1 Identifying Ball by Brand, Model and Number Only
Q. In the area in which his ball presumably came to rest, a player finds a ball of the same brand, model and identification number as the ball he is playing. The player assumes it is his ball, even though it does not carry an identification mark as suggested in Rule 12-2, and plays it. Should the player be considered to have played a wrong ball?
A. No, unless (1) there is clear evidence that, because of the ball's condition, it is not the player's ball or (2) subsequently it is established that another ball of the same brand, model and identification number was lying in the area at the time the player played and either ball, from a condition standpoint, could be the player's ball. (Revised)

PS: Keep a sharpie in the bag and always mark your ball.

[LobWedge]

There's a general assumption that if you go forward to search for your ball you are expecting to find it, and identify it, regardless of where it lies outside of a water hazard. There's nothing stopping a FC or opponent searching for your ball either, so if you don't want your ball to be found you either play another ball immediately from the previous spot (27-1), or if you've declared and played a provisional, you can make a stroke at the provisional from a place closer to the hole than where the original ball is likely to be. (27-2b)

In either case, once you have done this, the original ball is now considered lost.

[Kilroy]

Agreed, but I am visualizing a scenario such as this;

You hit into the forest where there is some dense stuff and some areas where play would be possble. You look around in the area where you would be happy to find it, avoiding looking in the thick stuf you don't want to have to play from. While searching you spot a ball deep in the thick stuff. Do you have to look closer to try to identify it or can you ignore that you saw it at all?

[LobWedge]

Agreed, but I am visualizing a scenario such as this;

You hit into the forest where there is some dense stuff and some areas where play would be possble. You look around in the area where you would be happy to find it, avoiding looking in the thick stuf you don't want to have to play from. While searching you spot a ball deep in the thick stuff. Do you have to look closer to try to identify it or can you ignore that you saw it at all?

I would say no. Whether you don't find your ball, or choose not to look for your ball, you end up at the same place - Stroke & Distance. It's not a free pass.

[Kilroy]

I'm not talking about avoiding a penalty. I am talking about not looking closely enough to ID a ball that might be yours because it's in an unplayable place. By not identifying the ball the original would be lost and the PB could be played under the stroke and distance penalty.

[LobWedge]

I'm not talking about avoiding a penalty. I am talking about not looking closely enough to ID a ball that might be yours because it's in an unplayable place. By not identifying the ball the original would be lost and the PB could be played under the stroke and distance penalty.

I'm not talking about avoiding the penalty either. It's just that if the ball is found in a "less than desirable position", more often than not all roads lead back to the same place anyway.

I know that there's the added wrinkle if the ball is found, that if the player decides to proceed under 28a, he has to go back to the previous spot. But, IMO, there's no difference in the pressure experienced in playing a provisional from the previous spot, or going back to play a ball after going forward. I've always thought that Rule 28 should allow the player to declare the provisional in play instead of having to abandon it if the original is found.

[PapaPat]

To be clear... If I see a ball that might be mine in a place that I don't want to hit from (because my provisional is sitting pretty in the middle of the fairway), I'm not obliged to identify it right?

I pretty much agree with all that has been said and don't have time today to look into it deeply. Perhaps what we are missing is contained in brackets. If where your provisional lies factors into your decision to identify the ball or not, then you may just be walking the line with regard to the spirit of the game. However, I do not believe that you are not required to put on waders and carry a machete to play the game in the true spirit.

[Kilroy]

I know that there's the added wrinkle if the ball is found, ...

Ok, but that does not address the question asked by mjf, which is what I was trying to do.