What's more important in a driver?

[jvincent]

What if the third ball is a ping pong ball?

[SMT]

What if the third ball is a ping pong ball?

hahaha, go to the next tee and mark down "6"

[Chieflongtee]

What if the third ball is a ping pong ball?

you set it on fire

[Chieflongtee]

I will try to use other sport and you guys could tell me what you think.

Slo-Picth: 15 years ago most players would use bats that were 35 to 38 ounces. Now, if would watch or play "A" or "B" ball most if not all the players use bats that are 26 to 28 ounces. Bat swing is the most important thing.

Hockey: The use of the lighter stick has help shots to be a lot harder. The biggest problem for week-end players is that they use sticks that are way too stiff. Most palyers (including kids) should use a stick with a 50 to 70 flex. All players playing in a league with no slapshot should use a stick that is also 50 to 70 flex. If you play with slapshot and are short you should also use less flex in your stick. If I remember right, Brett Hull use stick with a 65 to 70 flex.

Do bats have torque? Do bats flex? What is the stiffest part of the bat? The handle or where you hit the ball most of the time? Same question for hockey sticks.

OTOH when I was playing tennis back in the old days we use wooden racquets. Then came aluminum (Head racquets-loved the head master at the time) Then came the prince(they were great for weaker players but I could not control them) Then came oversize Graphite. Definitely more power but I could not hit all of them. Some of them were just too powerful and I could not keep the ball in the court. Of course string tension plays a role 2. I finally found one to my taste where i could hit the ball as hard as I could with heavy topspin and kept mostof the balls in play.

[jvincent]

hahaha, go to the next tee and mark down "6"

Oddly enough, that happens far too often for me when I use lightweight shafts.

Having gone through my share of shaft experiments I am definitely convinced that total weight and flex profile are the most important aspects and the latter mostly as it relates to feel.

[Chieflongtee]

I.

You mentioned Fazfit earlier.
Off Track Sorry all.

Doesn't the new 4-PLAY CONFORM with USGA Rules?.
http://www.clubconex.com/

[Chambokl]

Do bats flex?

André, like golf shaft bats have flex and like golf different companies have different name. Here are some of them: Regular, stiff, Opti, extended, handle, etc...

As for hockey sticks well flex goes from 50 to 120...

As a user I think (personnal) that lighter is better and that flex is something you have to try. Light shaft will give you a faster swing but like a few said the head is the heaviest part of the club. I guess a lighter club will be harder to control but have a faster club-head speed. A heavier club will be the contrary.

So the trick, I guess, is to find the perfect weight that a golfer can control and have the fastest club-head speed as possible.

[BC MIST]

How would you expalin the following results?? Marketing?

When the experiment is a little more scientific, carried out on a swing machine (Iron Byron type) and the results turn out as published, then there would be reason to sit up and take notice. Otherwise, not.

[Chieflongtee]

When the experiment is a little more scientific, carried out on a swing machine (Iron Byron type) and the results turn out as published, then there would be reason to sit up and take notice. Otherwise, not.

Figured you'd come up with some like that. There is company that specializes in such tests but no published results:
http://www.golflabs.com/robot_testing.html

More:
http://www.harrison.com/hs-news_robot71408.html

I am sure I could find more but to what avail

[BC MIST]

Figured you'd come up with some like that.

Is there something wrong with seeking the truth? You know that a sizable chunk of the money spent on golf clubs is based on the marketing techniques (IOW-BS) of the manufacturer and not on sound scientific knowledge derived from proper testing procedures.

If tests ARE in fact constructed as was described in one of your links, (To test shafts it is recommended that the same heads be used on all of the clubs tested. These heads, and clubs, should be checked for their LOFT, LIE, LENGTH, WEIGHT, BULGE, AND ROLL. It is critical that all of the heads be the same. That way you have isolated the shaft as the variable that you are examining. Once this accomplished we can evaluate the shaft based upon distance (length), dispersion (accuracy), trajectory, and club head speed.) then the results are approaching something that is meaningful. Now, if the robots can be adjusted to include the various swing characteristics that we mortals have, (early/late release, slow/fast tempo, lag/no lag at transition) we have a winner.

Until we get there, spending $1000 on learning to play better over the same spent on buying 5 yards of distance, (5 yards of accuracy may be worth it) is money wisely spent.

[Chieflongtee]

In total agreement with you BC. The test although not done by a machine/robot indicated that the guinea pig found a shaft to his liking and that is good enough for me. Forgive me if you misunterstood my comments but I am not looking for longer distance. I am looking for better shot dispersion. And if a shaft allows me not to spread it all over the place then as a rebound I will gain distance with better dispersion.

[Chieflongtee]

As this is my business and my profession, and as I have been designing both heads and shafts for many years, I would like to reply.


1. Absolutely not. I guarantee you that I can do more with a clubhead or clubhead design to impact a change in your game than I ever could with any shaft on the market today or in the history of this great game.


Mike

Let me your brain here a little Mike. Are your clubheads hand selected or do you offer that service? Notwithstanding swing flaws what causes a hook or a slice? In other words what happens when a ball is struck on either the toe or the heel of the club when a good swing is applied to the ball. Have you ever thought of designing a club with 5 degrees open or closed? What would happen if for instance you designed a club with an uneven bulge i.e more toe bulge for the hooker and more heel bulge for the slicer? Is that feasible? Would it influence ball flight?
Have a good day.

[SMT]

Let me your brain here a little Mike. 1.Are your clubheads hand selected or do you offer that service? 2. Notwithstanding swing flaws what causes a hook or a slice? 3. In other words what happens when a ball is struck on either the toe or the heel of the club when a good swing is applied to the ball. 4. Have you ever thought of designing a club with 5 degrees open or closed? 5. What would happen if for instance you designed a club with an uneven bulge i.e more toe bulge for the hooker and more heel bulge for the slicer? Is that feasible? Would it influence ball flight?
Have a good day.

1. We absolutely offer hand picking for our customers and do so daily. We can pick as close as possible to desired, loft, lie, face angle and weight. We are happy to do so and do not charge a fee like some others do for this service,

2. Having taught the John Jacobs ball flight method for 30+ years now, I can tell you that a hook is ONLY caused when that clubface is closed in relation to the swingpath at impact and a slice is ONLY caused by an open clubface, in relation to swingpath at impact.

3. In my opinion, a "good swing" includes impact conditions... In other words a great swing if you miss the ball leaves you with a very short walk to your next shot. But I think you are fishing for the phrase "gear effect" so I will give it to you here.

4. Absolutely positively, without question..... NO! Don't lose sight of simple good business practices. I am firmly aware of the component companies uphill battle against the OEM... I am also keenly aware of my niche. I could not imagine blowing a ton of cash to cater to a micro-niche within my niche. I am comfortable in realizing that I cannot please all customers and their desires. Secondly I see no reason to build such a club... It is a band-aid club at best and I liken it to having a car that pulls violently to the right..... Would I plan my days to only make right hand turns because it is easier?... Or do I get the car fixed?

5. I am sure if one were to think about it , it would or could be feasible... but I sure as heck would not form a business model around it, and I would love to sit in on the meeting with the banker when trying to get cash to invest in such a plan. There is a HUGE difference between "feasible" and marketable". I would leave something like that to Jack Hamm.

[BC MIST]

And if a shaft allows me not to spread it all over the place then as a rebound I will gain distance with better dispersion.

Regardless of the shaft used, does dispersion not still come down to consistent swing mechanics?

If you make contact all over the face, the dispersion will obviously be greater, whereas, centre of face contact, will see very tight dispersion. If you make centre of face contact with good mechanics, an ill fitting shaft will still yield a tight dispersion. However, if the ill fitted shaft causes your mechanics to become erratic (I don't see why this should happen), then greater dispersion is understandable.

[Chieflongtee]

OK then. Put a noodle in your driver.
How do you explain the fact that many players experience better performance with a shaft change. The shaft did not change the swing

[spackler]

The shaft did not change the swing

Couldn't the 'feel' of the shaft subconsciously cause a golfer to change their swing to accommodate the perceived 'feeling'?

[Chieflongtee]

Couldn't the 'feel' of the shaft subconsciously cause a golfer to change their swing to accommodate the perceived 'feeling'?

Couldn't the look and feel of the clubhead subconsciously cause a golfer to change their swing to accommodate the perceived 'feeling'?

[Kona Golf]

Regardless of the shaft used, does dispersion not still come down to consistent swing mechanics?

If you make contact all over the face, the dispersion will obviously be greater, whereas, centre of face contact, will see very tight dispersion. If you make centre of face contact with good mechanics, an ill fitting shaft will still yield a tight dispersion. However, if the ill fitted shaft causes your mechanics to become erratic (I don't see why this should happen), then greater dispersion is understandable.

So if a club designer can design a head that can offer more consistency even on off center hits, does that not shift the importance of the head over the shaft. Anybody that has ever used a 455 db will know exactly what I am referring too!

Remember we are talking about the average golfer here.

[Kona Golf]

OK then. Put a noodle in your driver.
How do you explain the fact that many players experience better performance with a shaft change. The shaft did not change the swing

Is this not like a new driver Andre... You hit it much better than your old driver....well at least until you pay for it!

[Chieflongtee]

So if a club designer can design a head that can offer more consistency even on off center hits, does that not shift the importance of the head over the shaft. Anybody that has ever used a 455 db will know exactly what I am referring too!

Remember we are talking about the average golfer here.

Could be that the shaft was spined.

[BC MIST]

So if a club designer can design a head that can offer more consistency even on off center hits, does that not shift the importance of the head over the shaft. Anybody that has ever used a 455 db will know exactly what I am referring too! Remember we are talking about the average golfer here.

I agree with you that the head is infinitely more important than the shaft in a golf club in terms of dispersion and today's designs offer BETTER results than those manufactured in days gone by. The SMT heads are wonderful clubs and having assembled 40+ of them for others in the last several years, most of which are still in play, and having used the Nemesis (grey and blue versions), the Spectrum, the Encore and the 455 Deep Bore personally, there is no doubt that they improve the quality of a shot when hit off centre. Likewise, cavity back, perimeter weighted irons will also improve the results of poor swings that cause off centre contact. This is why, IMO, no golfer should ever play a blade type head as off center contact will yield inferior results that a cavity back hit in the same spot, IF results are important to the player.

However, if there is a suggestion in any of the previous comments that the shaft or the head is more important than good swing mechanics in lessening shot dispersion, it is just incredulous. A lousy swing with a perfectly fitted shaft and superior head design, results in a slightly better than lousy shot, but a $50 Wally Mart special with a good swing will give a good result. That's common sense. But, convincing your "average" golfer of this, is a losing proposition, as the marketers have convinced many that golfing success is just one $2400 purchase away.($1000 irons, $500 driver, $200 putter, $150 wedges, $200 fairway woods or hybrids)

[Kona Golf]

I agree with you that the head is infinitely more important than the shaft in a golf club in terms of dispersion and today's designs offer BETTER results than those manufactured in days gone by. The SMT heads are wonderful clubs and having assembled 40+ of them for others in the last several years, most of which are still in play, and having used the Nemesis (grey and blue versions), the Spectrum, the Encore and the 455 Deep Bore personally, there is no doubt that they improve the quality of a shot when hit off centre. Likewise, cavity back, perimeter weighted irons will also improve the results of poor swings that cause off centre contact. This is why, IMO, no golfer should ever play a blade type head as off center contact will yield inferior results that a cavity back hit in the same spot, IF results are important to the player.

However, if there is a suggestion in any of the previous comments that the shaft or the head is more important than good swing mechanics in lessening shot dispersion, it is just incredulous. A lousy swing with a perfectly fitted shaft and superior head design, results in a slightly better than lousy shot, but a $50 Wally Mart special with a good swing will give a good result. That's common sense. But, convincing your "average" golfer of this, is a losing proposition, as the marketers have convinced many that golfing success is just one $2400 purchase away.($1000 irons, $500 driver, $200 putter, $150 wedges, $200 fairway woods or hybrids)

Well Said - Nothing can fix a lousy swing except lessons /practice/ and patience!

[Chieflongtee]

Well Said - Nothing can fix a lousy swing except lessons /practice/ and patience!

Well almostAn offset closed face will help. TLT will also help the slicer if you give him an upright series and vice versa for the hooker.Shovels will hep too. If all this good stuff does not help tell me why someone would build a Flatline MOI matched set??

[SMT]

Well almostAn offset closed face will help. TLT will also help the slicer if you give him an upright series and vice versa for the hooker.Shovels will hep too. If all this good stuff does not help tell me why someone would build a Flatline MOI matched set??

In my opinion MOI Matching is fundamentally flawed from the very first step.

As for the rest of this post... I would NEVER recommend "fitting" to fix a problem.

In other words... if my car pulled to the right.... should I plan my day to ONLY make right hand turns? Or should I get the car fixed?


Your post leads me to believe that I should simply deal with the porrly running automobile.... I sure hope that you are not a physician by profession.

[Chieflongtee]

In my opinion MOI Matching is fundamentally flawed from the very first step.

As for the rest of this post... I would NEVER recommend "fitting" to fix a problem.

In other words... if my car pulled to the right.... should I plan my day to ONLY make right hand turns? Or should I get the car fixed?


Your post leads me to believe that I should simply deal with the porrly running automobile.... I sure hope that you are not a physician by profession.

Tell me then why SMT offers different heads and shafts. Might as well only carry one head and one shaft. Please also tell me why tour players live with their swing tendencies instead of trying to hit the elusive straight ball. Didn't Jack make a carreer out of a fade? If his swing had been flawless he would have opted for the straight ball time and time again. Did Leitzke make left turns? Don't know what you have against MOI matching. Perhaps you should take it up with TW or Richard Kempton. What are you by profession? A salesman?

[SMT]

Well Chief.....

Since I am lying in bed recovering from surgery, and you clearly have nothing else to do on a lovely Saturday afternoon.... I will play along.


Tell me then why SMT offers different heads and shafts. Might as well only carry one head and one shaft.Thank you for the business advice... personally, I have 6 driver heads, all diferent sizes, colors, center of gravity and playing characteristics to appeal to the largest cross section of potential customers.... I can't help but strike a parallel to the auto industry... why doesn't Chevy or Ford or Nissan, Honda, Cadillac etc. make "just one model" as you say... hmmmmmm. give me a moment, I am sure it will come to me. And all those colors and options.... mind boggling, aint it? Please also tell me why tour players live with their swing tendencies instead of trying to hit the elusive straight ball. Didn't Jack make a carreer out of a fade? If his swing had been flawless he would have opted for the straight ball time and time again. Did Leitzke make left turns? How about Hogan who literally beat the hook out of his game? Of course we could continue... personaly, I do not fit to fix an issue. Perhaps you do, and that is yor decision. Don't know what you have against MOI matching. It simply does not make that much sense to me, and like I said... The procedure is fundamentally flawed, in my opinion, right from the start. Perhaps you should take it up with TW or Richard Kempton.No need to... as I don't care to take on the argument.... I also disagree with Communism, but I felt no need to contact the kremlin 35 years ago.What are you by profession? A salesman? Actually, you are well aware of what I do and my qualifications...

[Chieflongtee]

Well Chief.....

Since I am lying in bed recovering from surgery, and you clearly have nothing else to do on a lovely Saturday afternoon.... I will play along.


Tell me then why SMT offers different heads and shafts. Might as well only carry one head and one shaft.Thank you for the business advice... personally, I have 6 driver heads, all diferent sizes, colors, center of gravity and playing characteristics to appeal to the largest cross section of potential customers.... I can't help but strike a parallel to the auto industry... why doesn't Chevy or Ford or Nissan, Honda, Cadillac etc. make "just one model" as you say... hmmmmmm. give me a moment, I am sure it will come to me. And all those colors and options.... mind boggling, aint it? Please also tell me why tour players live with their swing tendencies instead of trying to hit the elusive straight ball. Didn't Jack make a carreer out of a fade? If his swing had been flawless he would have opted for the straight ball time and time again. Did Leitzke make left turns? How about Hogan who literally beat the hook out of his game? Of course we could continue... personaly, I do not fit to fix an issue. Perhaps you do, and that is yor decision. Don't know what you have against MOI matching. It simply does not make that much sense to me, and like I said... The procedure is fundamentally flawed, in my opinion, right from the start. Perhaps you should take it up with TW or Richard Kempton.No need to... as I don't care to take on the argument.... I also disagree with Communism, but I felt no need to contact the kremlin 35 years ago.What are you by profession? A salesman? Actually, you are well aware of what I do and my qualifications...

If you want me to feel sorry for you please use another argument. You are getting personal and what I do with my time is entirely up to me. If you want to give me a rundown of my daily activities I will gladly do so. That being said I wish you a speedy recovery.
You keep coming with the right turn philosophy yet you offer designs that are contradictory to your take .Here is an example:

http://www.smtgolf.com/woods_Nemesis.asp

You will find the Nemesis head to play true to loft,regardless of which of the many lofts you choose for your particular game. The Nemesis is the only clubhead that also is available in an offset version for the chronic slicer in 8, 9, 10 &12 degrees of loft.

[SMT]

If you want me to feel sorry for you please use another argument. You are getting personal and what I do with my time is entirely up to me. If you want to give me a rundown of my daily activities I will gladly do so. That being said I wish you a speedy recovery.
You keep coming with the right turn philosophy yet you offer designs that are contradictory to your take .Here is an example:

http://www.smtgolf.com/woods_Nemesis.asp

Trust me when I say I do not need your pity... I am merely explaining why I am participating on my Saturday afternoon... it is either this or Hogans Heros reruns on T.V. - Either way, I am hoping for a power outage... LOL But I do appreciate your well wishes...


In my description I clearly mention CHRONIC slicers... for the same reason I have heads in all sizes and colors and featuring all sorts of different playability features, so too do I have the Nemesis Offset ( the worst selling of all heads ) for the player that simply does not want to, nor has the time or desire to fix their "car"

By the way....... the definition of CHRONIC is quite clear...






Main Entry: chron·ic Pronunciation: \ˈkrä-nik\ Function: adjective
1 a: marked by long duration or frequent recurrence b: suffering from a chronic disease

2 a: always present or encountered ; especially : constantly vexing, weakening, or troubling b: being such habitually

[Chieflongtee]

At the time of your reply there were 52 people viewing this forum. Be careful with your comments... You may tick off potential customers... This is not Illinois and spring is not really around the corner..The nemesis offset is a great club. Send me 5 demos and I will have your sales increase 10 foldA lot of pewople would benefit from such a design but hey ego plays a role in club selectionWhat does not make sense about MOI matching in your opinion? Wait til BC Mist and your CDN distributor read this. You will have plenty to occupy yourself in the next couple days.

Now I know why you are a Hogan's fans. You are watching Hogans heroes over and over. Dismissssssssssssssssssssssssssssed

[BC MIST]

Well almostAn offset closed face will help. TLT will also help the slicer if you give him an upright series and vice versa for the hooker.Shovels will help too. If all this good stuff does not help tell me why someone would build a Flatline MOI matched set??

The key word in your post is HELP and the various characteristics that Mike and Tom and others design into their products will do just that - help, but minimally, compared to what improving one's swing will do.

Tom Wishon states that the number 1 contribution of the shaft to a golf club is FEEL. Similarly, an MOI set is supposed to ensure that each club in a set of irons has the same "swing feel." My experience using Swing Sync's MOI and single frequency matched clubs back in the 80's showed just that and the MOI sets that I made for myself in the last few years do the same. Now, this method of assembly may suit the way I swing which is a "1" at the transition, using Wishon's description, with firm wrists, swinging down very quickly to the shaft plane and with a similar smooth tempo with all clubs. Perhaps someone with a rapid transition (a "3") may not like the FEEL, for example, of a softer short iron with a heavier head weight. The key word, regardless of assembly method chosen, is FEEL. My MOI set may be confidence inducing for me, but for others it may be scary. While a set that has a sloped frequency and constant swing weight may perform the same, I still prefer the SFM/MOI assembly. The truth, though, may lie in one's perception, that is, if a golfer thinks that an MOI set is better, it is, and if another thinks that a constant swing weight set is better, it is. Perfectly irrationally logical.