Only the OLD will understand this one.

[BC MIST]

Dan, Mike and Lyle walk down the fairway of a par 4 in search of their golf balls. Dan and Lyle find theirs but Mike cannot find his. After a 5 minute search, Mike walks back to the tee and hits a ball. When he walks up to the ball, he finds that it is his ORIGINAL ball. What is the ruling?

[mpare]

Unfortunately, I know this rule only too well. Mike is lying 3. Once he hit the second tee shot, his first ball was deemed lost.

Edit: Actually, the ball is deemed lost if it is not found within 5 minutes. (Rule 27)

[Indio]

Dan, Mike and Lyle walk down the fairway of a par 4 in search of their golf balls. Dan and Lyle find theirs but Mike cannot find his. After a 5 minute search, Mike walks back to the tee and hits a ball. When he walks up to the ball, he finds that it is his ORIGINAL ball. What is the ruling?

I am only guessing but I would say he can not play that ball and he has to find his 2nd ball or go back to the tee hitting 5. Had he hit a provisional in the first place, he would have been able to play the original since he found it and doesn't have to worry about finding the provisional.

[mpare]

Bob, I think that he cannot play the original ball, since it was deemed lost when it was not found within the 5 minutes allowed to find it. Rule 27 and the definition of a "lost ball" in Definitions section would govern this situation.

I am only guessing but I would say he can not play that ball and he has to find his 2nd ball or go back to the tee hitting 5. Had he hit a provisional in the first place, he would have been able to play the original since he found it and doesn't have to worry about finding the provisional.

[Indio]

Bob, I think that he cannot play the original ball, since it was deemed lost when it was not found within the 5 minutes allowed to find it. Rule 27 and the definition of a "lost ball" in Definitions section would govern this situation.

Mike, that is what I am trying to say but obviously not very well

He would only be able to play the original ball had he hit a provisional, which he did not.

[The Saint]

Rule 27-1 c..
c. Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes
If a ball is lost as a result of not being found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player's Side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it, the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).

[sillywilly]

if he finds the ball after his second shot but can't determine if its his first ball or his second ball does he have to declare it lost again and tee again shooting 5?

[mpare]

If he can't distinguish his second ball from the first, then it is deemed lost and he's headed back to the tee hitting five.

if he finds the ball after his second shot but can't determine if its his first ball or his second ball does he have to declare it lost again and tee again shooting 5?

[Kilroy]

Here's a point that isn't really part of the scenario described, but is interesting

If he plays a provisional and finds both balls but cannot determine which was played first (same brand & mark) he actually gets to pick either one and he's lying 3.

[sillywilly]

dan, that might be the case with a provisional but I don't think it is the case once the ball has been deemed lost... and you are already shooting 3. If that was the case you could pick the one with the better lie or better angle of attack without penalty since you are already shooting 3

[Kilroy]

I was editing my post while you wrote yours.

[sillywilly]

I got so happy when i thought I knew something you didn't... see my 1min response time?? LOL

[Kilroy]

It's interesting because to my knowlege it's the only case in golf where a player has a choice between two balls.

[sillywilly]

really? there has to be another situation where comes up... Lyle??

I'm going to try to think of one..

[Kilroy]

Good luck with that.

[Weazl]

"" Insert jokes here ""

It's interesting because to my knowlege it's the only case in golf where a player has a choice between two balls.

[mpare]

My instincts tell me that has to be wrong. A player is supposed to know which ball was hit first and which was hit second. That's why you should be able to distinguish between the first one you hit and the second. If it's as you suggest, then the player has been rewarded for his inattention to this detail. Why should he be rewarded for that?

Here's a point that isn't really part of the scenario described, but is interesting

If he plays a provisional and finds both balls but cannot determine which was played first (same brand & mark) he actually gets to pick either one and he's lying 3.

[Indio]

It's interesting because to my knowlege it's the only case in golf where a player has a choice between two balls.

I'm not convinced he can use either ball if he can't tell which is which. he has to be able to identify it before he hits it doesn't he? Wouldn't that be considered another lost ball?

[mpare]

My point, exactly.

I'm not convinced he can use either ball if he can't tell which is which. he has to be able to identify it before he hits it doesn't he? Wouldn't that be considered another lost ball?

[mpare]

Well, we're wrong, Bob. Decision 27/11 has determined that it would be inequitable to require the player to head back to the tee to hit 5. I think that decision is wrong. The inequity is providing a sympathetic ruling to one who was not wise or cautious enough to distinguish between the two balls he hit. This is especially so if one of those balls (really the second) is in a much better position than the first. Under this ruling, the player can play the second without penalty (which he could not do had he properly marked the ball) and forget the first. That's the real inequity that the rules officials have failed to recognize.

Here's the ruling:

A player entitled to play a provisional ball from the tee plays it into the same area as his original ball. The balls have identical markings and the player cannot distinguish between them. Following are various situations and the solutions, which are based on equity (Rule 1-4), when the above circumstances exist and one or both of the balls are found within a search of five minutes:

Situation 1: One ball is found in a water hazard and the other ball is not found.

Solution 1: The ball that was found must be presumed to be the provisional ball.

Situation 2: Both balls are found in a water hazard.

Solution 2: As the player’s original ball is lost in the water hazard due to his inability to identify it (see analogous Decision 27/10), the player must proceed under Rule 26-1 with respect to the original ball (estimating the spot where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, if necessary – see Decision 26-1/17); his next stroke would be his third.

Situation 3: One ball is found in bounds and the other ball is lost or is found out of bounds.

Solution 3: The ball in bounds must be presumed to be the provisional ball.

Situation 4: Both balls are found in bounds, whether in a playable or an unplayable lie, and (1) one ball is in a water hazard and the other is not or (2) both balls lie through the green or in a bunker.

Solution 4: One could argue that both balls are lost. However, it would be inequitable to require the player to return to the tee, playing 5, when the player has found both balls but does not know which is the original and which the provisional. Accordingly, the player must select one of the balls, treat it as his provisional ball and abandon the other. (Revised)

[Big Johnny69]

My instincts tell me that has to be wrong. A player is supposed to know which ball was hit first and which was hit second. That's why you should be able to distinguish between the first one you hit and the second. If it's as you suggest, then the player has been rewarded for his inattention to this detail. Why should he be rewarded for that?

This could happen to pros Mike. With the one ball rule in effect for competition, and some players mark all their golf balls the same, and always play the same number it would be real easy to not be able to tell them apart.

[mpare]

That's why they sell felt tip pens. The pro could add another mark to the second ball. Were he to do that, then the problem would never arise.

This could happen to pros Mike. With the one ball rule in effect for competition, and some players mark all their golf balls the same, and always play the same number it would be real easy to not be able to tell them apart.

[Big Johnny69]

That's why they sell felt tip pens. The pro could add another mark to the second ball. Were he to do that, then the problem would never arise.

True, but if he forgot to, this scenario could easily arise. Just trying to point out how it could happen.

[mpare]

I understand that, Geoff. My point is that the rules of golf uniformly expect golfers to take the necessary steps to ensure that they are in compliance with those rules. Generally, no solace is offered to those who transgress, whether intentionally or inadvertently. My question is: why is such comfort offered in this instance? I just don't see the rationale for it. In this scenario, the resort to equity as a justification is unconvincing.

True, but if he forgot to, this scenario could easily arise. Just trying to point out how it could happen.

[Kilroy]

At least they make you assume the ball chosen is the provisional, not the first. That's why I mentioned it. It's a rather odd one.

[Big Johnny69]

I understand that, Geoff. My point is that the rules of golf uniformly expect golfers to take the necessary steps to ensure that they are in compliance with those rules. Generally, no solace is offered to those who transgress, whether intentionally or inadvertently. My question is: why is such comfort offered in this instance? I just don't see the rationale for it. In this scenario, the resort to equity as a justification is unconvincing.

Perhaps for pace of play. Seeing as how the player has already been penalized and he knows these are his balls that he has hit???? I'm with you, I don't understand the rationale, but it is what it is.

[Indio]

Well, we're wrong, Bob.

I guess thats why I usually stay out of this section.... for once I thought I was using my head and again I was wrong

[Started2k3]

Mike needs to keep looking for his second ball.
If Mike finds it he is lying 3 with the second ball.
If he can't find it (second 5 min search), then back to the tee to hit a third ball AND should seriously think about hiring a forecaddy or get his eyes checked or playing partners with good eyesight who can track a ball coming at them.

[Kilroy]

I think you got it Started2k3.

Of course by now we are looking for a beer cart and trying not to look silly as the guys behind us play through.

[The Saint]

I think you got it Started2k3.

Of course by now we are looking for a beer cart and trying not to look silly as the guys behind us play through.

Or women