Match play handicapping - different tees

[GarthM]

Can someone explain why the difference in course rating is applied to players playing from different tees after the allocation of strokes is done? Is the difference in difficulty not already taken into account when the course handicap is calculated based on the tee to be played?

Colour me confused....

[jvincent]

I always thought that this was odd too, but if you think of the way your handicap index/factor is calculated it makes sense, sort of.

For handicap purposes the course rating is subracted from your score and that difference is then adjusted by the course slope to create the differential. So at that point you can make the arguement that the course rating has been normalized out of the differentials used to determine your handicap index/factor which is now primarily a function of slope. In a net competition played from the same tees all is good.

But if you are playing from different tees the normalization has been removed so you have to add back in the impact of different ratings.

At least that's how I understand it.

[Gobble_It]

Can someone explain why the difference in course rating is applied to players playing from different tees after the allocation of strokes is done? Is the difference in difficulty not already taken into account when the course handicap is calculated based on the tee to be played?

Colour me confused....

The higher handicap player would apply the handicap stroke on the highest rated holes (highest in difficulty based on the hole handicap). Let's say player A has 4 strokes on player B, he would apply one handicap stroke each on the holes with handicap rank 1, 2, 3 and 4th specified by the course.

[GarthM]

IIRC you're a stats guy ....I'm not...

I suppose it makes sense, but at the same time the slope used to create the differential is also different based on the tees played and also comes into play when calculating your course handicap for a particular tee (if I remember the formula).

Just seems bizarre to me, and seems to favour the lower handicap player. For instance, if based on course handicap differential I need to give you 4 strokes because I'm a 6 and you're a 10, but the difference between the blues and whites in the rating is 3, you only get 1 stroke if we play our respective tees.

[GarthM]

Gobble_It: Thanks, but that is not what I was asking.. I know how to apply strokes...

[jvincent]

I can see the rationale, but I don't think it's 100% right either since there is still an element of the course rating baked into the handicap factor.

That said, I think a new handicap system based off a statistical score would be much better. No need for separate ratings and slopes. Each tee just gets one number that is universally applied to men and women.

They have all the shot data from the tour to create the model, all that left is to run a crap-ton of simulations for every course out there. Piece of cake IMHO.

[AAA]

IIRC you're a stats guy ....I'm not...

I suppose it makes sense, but at the same time the slope used to create the differential is also different based on the tees played and also comes into play when calculating your course handicap for a particular tee (if I remember the formula).

I'm not sure I understood what you are saying.

Slope only provides the relative difficulty for two players playing from the same tees. It tell you nothing about the relationship between different tees
A player determine his playing handicap for the tees he will play by using the slope table for those tees. The other player does the same for the tees he is going to use.
Now you have the players' handicaps. If they are playing a match, subtract one from t'other and make whatever adjustment Canada uses for matchplay (if any). In the UK it is full difference.

[jvincent]

Not the OP, but I can try to summarize his confusion, since I had the same issue.

Your handicap index/factor is based on all of your scores which can be played from different tees, and as such it is derived from a combination of ratings and slopes. Once you have a factor/index you then calculate the course handicap for a given set of tees.

The confusion is that when two players play a match from different tees, they don't just use the course handicaps for there particular set of tees. They also need to adjust for the different rating even though the rating is not used to determine the course handicap.

[tigger12]

My understanding is this. Please correct where I am wrong.
Red tees slope 110/ 68.1
White tees slope 121/ 71.1 ( numbers made up)
Two players one plays from reds one from whites. Both have a handicap from their respective tees of 10.
71.1-68.1= 3
The player playing from the whites gets 3 strokes.
Now if it was allowed and the white tee player went up to the Reds he would give the the red tee player 3 strokes.
Another consideration is a man and a woman both playing from the Reds.
Men 110/68.1
Women 123/71.3
Courses are rated differently for men and women.
The man would give the woman 3 more strokes to be added to the woman's handicap.

[AAA]

The example numbers you show are not just slope.
110/ 68.1 means the scratch Course Rating is 68.1 and the Slope is 110
121/ 71.1 means the scratch Course Rating is 71.1 and the Slope is 121

All players have a fixed Handicap Factor (to 1 dec place) which is independent of the course to be played.
A player determines his Course Handicap (whole number) by checking his factor against the Course Handicap Table for the particular tees he will play.

In a match both players determine their Course Handicap for their own tees and give or take the difference (whole number) to determine the number of strokes received.

[GarthM]

I'm not sure I understood what you are saying.

Slope only provides the relative difficulty for two players playing from the same tees. It tell you nothing about the relationship between different tees
A player determine his playing handicap for the tees he will play by using the slope table for those tees. The other player does the same for the tees he is going to use.
Now you have the players' handicaps. If they are playing a match, subtract one from t'other and make whatever adjustment Canada uses for matchplay (if any). In the UK it is full difference.

Yes and here in Canada we also apply the full difference, however the USGA/RCGA have decided that an adjustment be made when playing from different tees - see section 9-3(c) of the RCGA handicap manual

I'm just trying to understand the reasoning why, as it seems to overly favour the player playing the more difficult tees. Thanks!

[tigger12]

Thanks aaa for clarification.
My understanding is you are playing slightly different courses. Bear with me. If the Reds are 500 yds shorter than the whites then it is an easier course. That is reflected in course rating. So using my numbers from above it calculates to 3 strokes.
Similar concept to two ten handicaps from different courses. One is from a top course with a slope137/71.1 (real numbers) the second is from a local easier course slope110/67.1. Should they play even up? No way the player from the easier course gets stokes.
71.1-67.1= 4 strokes.

[Kilroy]

Well tigger12, that is actually exactly what the slope and rating system is for. Remember that a 10 handicap factor is not the same as a course handicap of 10. If they are both 10 handicaps (not factor) as calculated for the course and tees they are playing they should be playing straight up.

[AAA]

Similar concept to two ten handicaps from different courses. One is from a top course with a slope137/71.1 (real numbers) the second is from a local easier course slope110/67.1. Should they play even up? No way the player from the easier course gets stokes.
71.1-67.1= 4 strokes.

The system does not concern itself with which course or courses a player plays on. If a player only ever plays on one course or if he normally plays on many different course, his handicap will be based on his (course) handicap he has at the course he plays at the time he plays. It is not based on his handicap factor.

[jvincent]

The system does not concern itself with which course or courses a player plays on. If a player only ever plays on one course or if he normally plays on many different course, his handicap will be based on his (course) handicap he has at the course he plays at the time he plays. It is not based on his handicap factor.

I think you meant to say something different. Your course handicap is absolutely based on your handicap factor.

[AAA]

Your handicap factor is 'turned into' a course handicap based on the course/tees being played. If he has only ever played one course/tees his and his playing quality remains static, his course handicap will be the same every time he plays. If he takes a day out to another course or switches tees, his course handicap will be different.

[jvincent]

I think you're spiltting hairs here.

Your course handicap is calculated from the slope of the tees you are playing and your factor. Or looked up by a table if you don't have a calculator handy.

[AAA]

I think I may have caused confusion.

I was trying to indicate that a handicap factor is gained by playing one repeatedly or playing many courses. The figure that matters is the course handicap of the one actually being played at the time.

[zee51]

Handicap is the product of both index and slope. That is why a players handicap will be higher at a course with a higher slope rating. So slope really has nothing to do with the question. If one is playing match play against a competitor that is playing different tees the following procedure is used:

The player playing from the set of tees with the higher Course Rating receives additional stroke(s) equal to the difference between each Course Rating, with the resulting figure rounded off to the nearest whole number (.5 or more is rounded upward).

[Martin B]

When the rating of courses first began, the ratings were based on play by scratch golfers, and the rating were imaginatively called Course Ratings. Even today, if you are only interested in scratch golfers, this is the only rating you need.

After a while it was noticed that average (or worse) golfers found this rating inadequate. For example, consider two courses. One is rather short but has tight fairways and lots of water. The other is long but forgiving. Scratch golfers might rate the two the same, but duffers would not.

This led to the development of slope (so called from the shape of the graph in a linear regression) that adjusted for how the level of skill effected the play of the course.

So...using both Course Rating and Slope reflects the basics of the course plus an adjustment for the golfer's level of skill.