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  1. #1
    Wannamaker stevek is on a distinguished road stevek's Avatar
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    Sweeping rules change proposals

    http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf...dayNL_20170301

    I could see adoption of many/all of these could really speed up the game.

    New rule: Committees are given the discretion to mark all penalty areas as red so that lateral relief is always allowed (but they may still mark penalty areas as yellow where they consider it appropriate).
    Current rule: All water hazards should be marked yellow, except where their location on the course makes it impossible or unreasonable to drop behind the hazard; only when this is the case may these water hazards be marked red as lateral water hazards.
    Last edited by stevek; 03-01-2017 at 11:42 AM.
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  2. #2
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    This is remarkable. These are indeed sweeping changes. I like the removal of penalties when one accidently moves a ball while searching or on the putting green. I also like the 3 minute limit on searching.
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  3. #3
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevek View Post
    [URL]
    New rule: Committees are given the discretion to mark all penalty areas as red so that lateral relief is always allowed (but they may still mark penalty areas as yellow where they consider it appropriate).
    Current rule: All water hazards should be marked yellow, except where their location on the course makes it impossible or unreasonable to drop behind the hazard; only when this is the case may these water hazards be marked red as lateral water hazards.
    It makes sense to recognize that there are hazardous areas other than those that actually contain water. Many courses already do this. This change validates the markings and allows courses that would not have done this in the past to do so. This will indeed speed up play in a big way.
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  4. #4
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilroy View Post
    It makes sense to recognize that there are hazardous areas other than those that actually contain water. Many courses already do this. This change validates the markings and allows courses that would not have done this in the past to do so. This will indeed speed up play in a big way.
    We have often discussed this point and the consensus is that, while there may be some time gains in marking "penalty areas" with red stakes, it is minimal. Depending on the area, players are going to look for their ball anyway, whether the area is marked or not. If a provisional is NOT hit, how many players actually walk back to apply the stroke and distance penalty and thereby consuming more time? The greatest gain in time is going to occur because of the search time reduction from 5 minutes to 3, which is a great move.
    Marking non hazard areas with red stakes will reduce scores overall, but most importantly, it will give the long, and sometimes crooked, long hitters, another advantage. particularly on the par 5's.

  5. #5
    Posting Sensei justsomeguy is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    We have often discussed this point and the consensus is that, while there may be some time gains in marking "penalty areas" with red stakes, it is minimal. Depending on the area, players are going to look for their ball anyway, whether the area is marked or not.
    There are many areas on many courses where I would not even bother to look for my ball and/or would not want to find my ball and be forced to abandon my provisional (and I do play provisionals). Time is saved both because players will not bother looking for a ball and they will not have to play a provisional.

    OTOH, the change I don't like is the new dropping procedure. I don't a whole lot of difference between dropping a ball and placing it when you only have to drop it one inch. I can see a lot more players asking for free relief in questionable circumstances because it will truly amount to a "get out of jail free" card.

  6. #6
    Wannamaker stevek is on a distinguished road stevek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    We have often discussed this point and the consensus is that, while there may be some time gains in marking "penalty areas" with red stakes, it is minimal. Depending on the area, players are going to look for their ball anyway, whether the area is marked or not. If a provisional is NOT hit, how many players actually walk back to apply the stroke and distance penalty and thereby consuming more time? The greatest gain in time is going to occur because of the search time reduction from 5 minutes to 3, which is a great move.
    Marking non hazard areas with red stakes will reduce scores overall, but most importantly, it will give the long, and sometimes crooked, long hitters, another advantage. particularly on the par 5's.
    Like Legacy 10 on the right tree side which is red staked, at points, or is it?
    "Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men...
    the other 999 follow women." - Groucho Marx

  7. #7
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
    I don't a whole lot of difference between dropping a ball and placing it when you only have to drop it one inch.
    Placing allows you to perch your ball precariously on a 'near enough' worm cast or tuft of grass with no danger of it falling just behind or just in front of said cast.
    Placing will almost always guarantee the best lie.

  8. #8
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevek View Post
    Like Legacy 10 on the right tree side which is red staked, at points, or is it?
    Steve, In the spring time much of the right side of #10, up to near the corner of the dogleg, contains water, which is why we marked it as a lateral water hazard. I am not sure if the additional red stake is still there but near the corner there is the last visible red stake and I had placed another one slightly inside the trees at right angles to hole, signifying the end of the lateral water hazard. So from that last red stake to the green is not marked as a lateral water hazard because it does not normally contain water, except for the occasional small amount of casual water.

  9. #9
    Wannamaker stevek is on a distinguished road stevek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC MIST View Post
    Steve, In the spring time much of the right side of #10, up to near the corner of the dogleg, contains water, which is why we marked it as a lateral water hazard. I am not sure if the additional red stake is still there but near the corner there is the last visible red stake and I had placed another one slightly inside the trees at right angles to hole, signifying the end of the lateral water hazard. So from that last red stake to the green is not marked as a lateral water hazard because it does not normally contain water, except for the occasional small amount of casual water.
    Hi Lyle; Hope your winter is going well.

    That is a lot like Legacy#2 in the spring (2/3rds of the way up on right) which I don't believe is staked. That's why this new rule change could make it easier to predict the staking of the course in a more consistent, if not a bit easier(playing) and perhaps faster. (The speed factor is perhaps the reason why you usually own the first tee-time of the day.)

    See you soon
    "Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men...
    the other 999 follow women." - Groucho Marx

  10. #10
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevek View Post
    Hi Lyle; Hope your winter is going well.

    That is a lot like Legacy#2 in the spring (2/3rds of the way up on right) which I don't believe is staked. That's why this new rule change could make it easier to predict the staking of the course in a more consistent, if not a bit easier(playing) and perhaps faster. (The speed factor is perhaps the reason why you usually own the first tee-time of the day.)
    Thanks, Steve.

    Yes, that is an area that we will have to look at and mark accordingly.

  11. #11
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    So with these proposed changes slated for 2018 nothing changes for this season. Not all of these proposals will necessarily make it into the rules. Food for thought and discussion only at this time.

    Anybody have any objections to any of these proposals?

    Is this sort of 'modernization' good for the game?

    Are the rules still too complex? - Should the simplification go further?

    I wonder how drastically this will affect handicaps. Most will drop by a couple of strokes I am sure. Has there been any discussion of adjusting the handicap formula?
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  12. #12
    England Golf Referee AAA is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilroy View Post

    I wonder how drastically this will affect handicaps. Most will drop by a couple of strokes I am sure. Has there been any discussion of adjusting the handicap formula?
    IMO it is more likely that a rating revision will be required for the 'recognition' of 'lateral hazards' and reduced difficulty of putting.

  13. #13
    Forum Jedi golfisforfun is on a distinguished road
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    These rules change truly only affect a minimal percentage of golfers as most recreational golfers play by their own rules anyways.

    These changes are strictly for official events.

  14. #14
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    Everyone should play by the rules. Those who chose to not play by the rules seem to feel they are not intended for them. Would you play Poker without following the rules? I feel that is a good analogy as there are wagers involved in poker as is often the case in golf. If you want to play for a loonie or a beer, it isn't fair without the rules of the game.

    If you just want to go for a walk and swing a club, by all means, but there is no point in keeping score as it is inaccurate if not played by the rules.

    I am happy to see some of the rules simplified. They could go further, and could even establish a set of relaxed rules you validate less serious players, but unless they do, these are the rules of the game.
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  15. #15
    Forum Jedi golfisforfun is on a distinguished road
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    Hard to play Poker by yourself... so it is not really a fair comparison.

    I think all sorts of rules should be changed, but none of those rules will affect the growth or decline of the game.

    In terms of keeping score or not, just because someone does not follow the rules does not make their score inaccurate for their own reference.

    All sorts of groups of golfers play by their own rules, some don't allow more than 4 putts, some allow 1 mulligan per round, some don't care if you carry 16 clubs, and who really cares, because those scores are between those golfers who all play by the same rules that they made up.

    I certainly don't care if the group ahead of me on a Saturday morning follows the rules or not...

  16. #16
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    I think a lot of people would like to play by the rules, but just don't know them. It's a complicated rule set.

    Some rules are impractical on a busy course, such as returning to the tee when a ball you expected to find is lost. On that note, since I personally play match play when playing with friends, In a situation like that I'm just 'out of the hole' and take an x for my handicap and move on. Perfectly within the rules of Matchplay and handicap guidelines. Problem solved. I don't advocate grinding over a putt for a 14 after taking 6 to get out of the forest etc. Knowing the rules can actually help you in a lot of situations too. They are not all penal.

    Simplifying the rules will make the game more friendly, but there has been massive resistance to that until now.
    Last edited by Kilroy; 03-30-2017 at 10:47 AM.
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  17. #17
    Wannamaker stevek is on a distinguished road stevek's Avatar
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    I'm hoping the proposed rules changes just makes the game faster.
    "Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men...
    the other 999 follow women." - Groucho Marx

  18. #18
    Golf Canada Rules Official L4 BC MIST is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevek View Post
    I'm hoping the proposed rules changes just makes the game faster.
    Making the game faster will be a consequence of each individual golfer walking faster between strokes, taking less time to play each stroke, particularly on the putting green, and being ready to play when it is his turn or by just playing "ready" golf. The proposed rule changes may help a little bit here and there but most players already play by certain relaxed rules so any change may not even be noticed.

    People play golf for different reasons but at the end of a round most will talk about a score. The only score that is real is one that is played by the rules so all the others are just estimates, and of course, are always lower than what the real one would be.

  19. #19
    Forum Jedi golfisforfun is on a distinguished road
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    Not sure how the proposed rule changes will speed up play when most golfers don't follow all the "rules of golf"...

  20. #20
    5 Wood nolrac2 is on a distinguished road
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    Kevin Na 70 in 2 hours with 4 straight birdies to end. Biggest issue is players not being organized..not prepared to play their shot etc (you know decide to take your golf out of your pocket only after you walk on the tee to take your shot or deciding to clean your ball after you have replaced it to putt etc. On tour it is the stupid amount of time they can take between shots only to come up 35 yds short and look around and blame that 90 MPH gust that suddenly came up...or read the putt from ten angles , readjust the line on the ball etc etc only to miss 16 inches short on the low side from 20 feet. Same reason baseball is so tedious to watch on TV and is manageable at the park because there are other fans to watch and beer.
    tap in

  21. #21
    7 Iron sliceleft is on a distinguished road
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    The big change in the rules is from many penalties being automatic to being discretionary -- "accidental" gives a player some room for judgement that did not exist before. If you kicked your ball while searching for it, it was a penalty; now your intent matters. While some recent PGA penalties showed the harshness of the old rules, I am pessimistic about the stretch that players will accord themselves, and the arguments that will ensue when those judgements are questioned.

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