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  1. #1
    Sand Wedge JesseGoodier is on a distinguished road
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    Sim Build Advice on screen size (GC2)

    Thank you everyone who has posted and shared information, hope that I can help others as I continue my project.

    I built a house to put a simulator in the basement. A few issues during construction, but should work just fine. Ceiling height at hitting area is 9'10"

    Looking to make this a really nice environment for golfing and tossing back a couple beers with friends.

    Just ordered a GC2 from Golfsmith for about $8,000.

    Biggest concern:
    There are I beams that I'll need to contend with. Bottom of I beam is 8'10".

    If I do a 16:9, I would have a 15'8" x 8'10" screen.

    Do you think I should do that, or go to a 4:3 and get a 12'3" x 9'2" screen?

    I won't be using it for movies.

    I'll try to attach a picture. All comments/advice welcome.
    -Jesse
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  2. #2
    Sand Wedge JesseGoodier is on a distinguished road
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    Slightly updated picture-
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  3. #3
    Ace wbealsd is on a distinguished road
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    Just my two cents, I'd go with the bigger screen.

  4. #4
    Bogie Libbing is on a distinguished road Libbing's Avatar
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    The bigger screen has a more dramatic effect when standing there. But if you aren't using it for movies, not sure you really need it as much. The benefit of the smaller screen is that it is cheaper - won't feel as bad about replacing it more often if it starts to get too beat up. Also probably easier to use tension to smooth out a smaller screen. I have 15 x 8-ish screen setup and it looks really cool. We use it for movies and video games and it is awesome. If I only used it for golf, I would only do the bigger screen if I wasn't working in a budget and didn't care about eventual replacement cost differences. Functionally it really doesn't make a difference.

  5. #5
    Sand Wedge JesseGoodier is on a distinguished road
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    Thanks guys.

    Libbing, I appreciate your comments. I guess cost isn't too much of a concern considering I built the house to get the "10 foot" basement. No point in saving money now!

    I'm still looking into projectors, and based on my limited 1080p needs, I'm thinking the only two things I care about are throw ratio and brightness. Anything else I should be concerned with?

    This one seems to be a real winner in the price/brightness/throw ratio categories:
    http://www.projectorcentral.com/View...ulator-pro.htm
    Essentially it can do a 8'10" H 16:9 screen from 7'1" away for $800.

    Any other suggestions welcome!
    Jesse

  6. #6
    Bogie Libbing is on a distinguished road Libbing's Avatar
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    I didn't look into short throw projectors much. The one you picked gives a lower lf factor than I would have thought (I think at your configuration it comes out to be 11 - apparently that LF rating is way more important than the lumens number, which can be misleading). I think 11 is ok, just thought it would have been better that close. I think the projector I have rates at 11 in my configuration and it seems plenty bright - but I have very very controlled lighting (totally blacked out on both walls and ceiling all the way back from the screen and no natural sunlight anywhere). If you don't have a blackout situation, you could put a project farther back (over the bar area) and potentially get higher lf. I use the Panasonic AR100u. From 17.5 ft with a 180" wide screen it projects at a 15lf. If you didn't look at that lf number, check those out.

    Also make sure that you have plenty of clearance in your backswing to that bar table. The two things that surprised me after my install was how much room you need for your takeaway (towards the bar in your situation) and how much room you need behind you for a practice swing (towards the wall or exercise area for you, depending on lefty/righty).

    Also make sure you think about where you are going to setup the computer. If using a gaming computer, you'll end up with a big tower, keyboard, monitor - that plus where you will set your golf clubs (and your buddies golf clubs) takes up more space that you'd think as well

  7. #7
    Sand Wedge JesseGoodier is on a distinguished road
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    More good advice that I hadn't thought of, thanks!

    All of the projectors I have tested have been in the green zone on projector central. Please correct me if I'm doing something wrong, but with that projector with a 106" width at 16:9, It says 19fl.

    I do have a very dark room as well. I also found another projector that I can get closer to the screen. Which would allow me to put the hitting location 10' from the screen and have loads of room behind the hitting location. The projector could be as close as 6' and still get the 106" screen.

    New picture of layout here: http://www.floorplanner.com/projects/25109071-florence/ (click on 2nd floor)

    I read that you want the projector just slightly ahead of the tee position to prevent shadows. Do you have any issues with shadows with your projector being that far back?

    In terms of a golf SIM, does anyone have experience with these "business" projectors vs. ones that say "home theater?"

  8. #8
    Bogie Libbing is on a distinguished road Libbing's Avatar
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    I assume the 106 = height (not width). At 106 tall you can get a 188" wide screen. That puts the lf at 10 being projected from about 8'. Make sure you check the "video / games" box under "primary use". Not sure how/why that math works, but it has a huge impact on that lf rating.

    I get some shadows when putting on a protee system (sensors are a couple of feet closer to the screen than the hitting mat) but it is at the very bottom. Not a big deal at all - I never even think about it until a conversation like this comes up. No shadows when hitting a shot. However, I project to the top of my screen, not to the floor (so it's still a 8-9' image, but unused screen hangs 15-18" or so below where the image is projected. If I projected all the way to the floor in might have more shadows.

    When I looked, I was steered away from the business projectors - they supposedly aren't setup to handle the fast moving / high data gaming graphics - they are for primarily for static images. With the comment on the budget, I would avoid those I think (or at least only buy it if you can test and return it). That said, maybe that comment is for even more intense gaming or high def than golf sims?

    That new projector you found has no zoom - so you'll have to be very specific with the location. lf rating is about the same as the other one when you check that video / games box.

    I think several people bought the Optoma GT750(e?) which generates a similar lf rating - you could ping them to see if it is ok (I remember username TheGolfer went through a lot of research on this topic a couple of years ago for a similar setup)

    With a dark room, you shouldn't have an issue with an lf of 11. One thing to think about regarding lighting - you're not going to want to black everything out near the sim just to play golf (depressing and hard to go get a beer!), especially with the bar setup, etc. So think about the lighting circuits so you can create the darkness just in the theatre area (with dimmer switches as well) but have background lighting as well. I have all my lights turned on while golfing starting about 20' back from the screen. I need to have the darker area for golf since I have the Protee system which relies on shadows. With the GC2, you don't need that. Given that, I would continue the search for a brighter projector so you don't need to rely on having the room so dark. All else being equal, I think most people would rather play golf in more light than less!

    Just noticed you are from Royal Oak. I am in Portage (West Michigan). If you ever find yourself in the area I'd be happy to show you the projector setup in real life. You'll get a feeling for what that lf rating translates to with various lighting conditions (I can turn lights on / off in my sim area) and see the shadow situation first hand. I have similar screen dimensions so it could be helpful.

  9. #9
    Sand Wedge JesseGoodier is on a distinguished road
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    You are correct again. I didn't see that the FL went down with the games vs. data/text.

    I might have to take you up on that offer. My wife is from Wisconsin, so I thought you were from Portage, WI! I take it your are near Kalamazoo? I'd have to hit Bells on the trip.

    Completely agree. I guess I need to start researching short throw/bright projectors.

    I wish the impact screen people published screen gain. And the projector folks don't let you search by throw ratio!

  10. #10
    7 Wood Msuzippy is on a distinguished road
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    Jesse, listen to Libbing. He hosted me at his house a couple weeks ago. His room is absolutely spectacular in all respects. He knows what he's doing.

  11. #11
    Bogie Libbing is on a distinguished road Libbing's Avatar
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    Thanks MSU. Glad to have you over. Jesse - yes, the Portage near Kalamazoo. Just noticed the state doesn't show on my description. Will have to change that. If you like Bell's, you need to make a day trip - we trip over micro brews around here now - Bell's, Arcadia (Battle Creek, building k'zoo now), Gonzo's BiggDogg, Old Peninsula, Latitude 42, Boatyard, Rupert's, Dark Horse (Marshall). That's before you even venture up to Grand Rapids or Saugatuck where you'll find another dozen. It's unreal.

    Let me know if you ever want to make the trip. Can walk you through the setup and get some golf in at the same time.

  12. #12
    Sand Wedge JesseGoodier is on a distinguished road
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    I honestly believe that Founders is one of the top 2 breweries in the world. With the best (unfortunately) being Sierra Nevada.

    Are you free Sunday? My email is [myname] @gmail.com
    My wife would love to see your setup also.

    If not this weekend- we have some time before our house is finished, probably in March.

  13. #13
    Bogie Libbing is on a distinguished road Libbing's Avatar
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    sent you an email

  14. #14
    3 Wood Frans@france is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesseGoodier View Post
    I honestly believe that Founders is one of the top 2 breweries in the world. With the best (unfortunately) being Sierra Nevada.

    The WBA doesn't agree nor do I You might need to visit places like Belgium before making that statement again

  15. #15
    Sand Wedge JesseGoodier is on a distinguished road
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    Frans- great point. I have had many of their beers in the USA, but i'll have to go there and do some sampling.

    I'm doing Oktoberfest this year and hitting a few cities- Paris, Vienna, Prague and obviously Munich. Will see if there is time to fit in Belgium!

  16. #16
    3 Wood Frans@france is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesseGoodier View Post
    Frans- great point. I have had many of their beers in the USA, but i'll have to go there and do some sampling.

    I'm doing Oktoberfest this year and hitting a few cities- Paris, Vienna, Prague and obviously Munich. Will see if there is time to fit in Belgium!

    Best time to be there is 31 august till 2 September because then there is the Belgium beer week with around 50 Belgium breweries being present. Some major beer can be tested then, really fun to do!

  17. #17
    Sand Wedge JesseGoodier is on a distinguished road
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    Not to get this post back on topic, but I'm now thinking the GT760 may be the way to go, thanks Libbing.
    I plan to put curtains up to protect walls, so light should be a non issue.

    http://www.projectorcentral.com/Opto...ulator-pro.htm

    If anyone has any feedback on that, I'm all ears.
    Thanks!

  18. #18
    Sand Wedge JesseGoodier is on a distinguished road
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    Here's an updated picture. I'm thinking that the height will be more like 8'6" so that I have a little more flexibility.

    So you all know. Floorplanner.com is awesome for this. Takes some learning, but very valuable when building.
    click 2nd floor
    http://www.floorplanner.com/projects/25109071-florence
    Attached Images

  19. #19
    1 Iron Jsgregg is on a distinguished road
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    Other than the fact that the GT760 is not 1080P, I think it is dynamite! I am considering it as well. It has a great price, is very bright, and get's great reviews. The other projector that I am still considering is the W1080ST.

  20. #20
    7 Iron Yongchai is on a distinguished road
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    Hi jesse,

    I'm looking into the GT760 as well for projector, could u give an update on it?

    Thanks

  21. #21
    Sand Wedge JesseGoodier is on a distinguished road
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    That's the one I'm most likely buying. The house should be done in March and will buy it then.

    Would love to hear your thoughts on it as well if you get it first.

  22. #22
    1 Iron Jsgregg is on a distinguished road
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    I picked up a GT760 off of Craigslist last week. I hooked it up yesterday and started experimenting with it and my PC. I think it looks great! Also you should know, it says it is 1280 x 720....but it is really 1280 x 800 which give you a 16:10 aspect ratio native. I really like that because it does a little better job filling the space than a 16:9 without having to go with 4:3.

  23. #23
    7 Iron Yongchai is on a distinguished road
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    Hey gregg,

    Thanks for the update, can i ask what screen size u are testing it on?

    I'm looking to do a 178' x 100' (w x h) projection (or i guess with the new ratio 160' x 100') . Does the GT 760 still perform well?

    Also, trying to get someone to answer for me on another thread about the image scale, does the golf sim environment look too big/small compared to real world size?

    Would appreciate if you could do some trial and error to see what projection size would have the most life-like scale.

  24. #24
    Ace goatbarn is on a distinguished road
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    Do you really want people to max their image size out to try and make it life-sized and report back to you?

    The bigger image you want, the more lumens/resolution you'll need to be bright enough and not pixelate. Simple as that.

    You will want to go as big as you can with the above in mind. I don't know why you're obsessing over the life-sized scale of things.

    I'd play on a screen thats 300' x 190' if I could. Hell, infinity x infinity while I'm at it.

  25. #25
    7 Iron Yongchai is on a distinguished road
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    I'm not sure if you are trolling me but here goes...

    Yes, i do want gregg to increase the image size and gives us an update. Would i have asked if i didn't?

    Am i going to be upset if he doesn't, well no, because that is his choice and he has no obligation to do it. But do i think he will? Well, yes, because if he's a DIYer like me, then part of reason of being a DIY'er (other than save some money), is because we like like to thinker with things and we find joy in discovery. So even though testing at that size might be of no use to him, i think he will enjoy the process of doing so and update us on his findings.

    Its easy to say "bigger image = need more lumen/resolution", but that doesn't really help anybody make an informed decision. What i'm trying to do is to actually quantify that equation. We are trying to say: "if screen size is 100' x 160', 3,400 lumens is enough/ not enough". We do this to help ourselves create the best sim room we can, and also as a guide for others who might come along one day with the same questions.

    If an image was projected 'life-size' on a 300' x 190' then it sure would be alot of fun to play, but can you imagine if the image was not lifesized but just scaled bigger according to screen size? A normal tree would be twice as big, the hole would be twice as wide. Granted, programmers need to have some leeway in proportions to keep things visible/accessable, but would you still enjoy playing the sim if it wasn't life sized properly? if i'm stuck behind a tree in a sim situation, i would like to be able to look at the screen and decide if a 7 iron will get me over the tree or if i need to change to a pitching wedge. Wouldn't u?

    So i hope with the reasons i have given above, u will agree with me that life-sized proportions are pretty important to be 'obsessed' about.

  26. #26
    Ace goatbarn is on a distinguished road
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    Sorry youngchai, I think this is a case of syntax not implying my intent. I didn't mean disrespect.

    Yes, it would be great if you could get the image projected to be very close to life-scaled. I just don't know of any reasonable way of figuring this out since there is very little info in the software that you can know the actual dimensions of in order to scale your image correctly.

    You can take a modeled building for instance, find out how tall is really is (idk how), then scale the image accordingly, as long as you know how far from the building your POV is. But who's to say the model was designed accurately?

    You certainly can't do it with trees. Maybe the flag pole? Again, not sure if Red Chain has their flag poles modeled at a certain size. The image of the flag stick might actually scale based on how far you are away from the hole too!

    The fact that you're playing on a 2D screen with 3D objects represented will limit your "immersive-ness" anyways since your brain won't be able to use your eyes natural depth perception. Some sim software looks really realistic, but this 2D/3D problem will always be an issue with golf sims. Maybe when they figure out 3D software/projector without glasses.

    Same reason why most people say they can't get the "feel" of short game shots. Lack of depth perception.

    Hope someone can help you out though, sorry for the mis-construed reply.

  27. #27
    1 Iron AJA is on a distinguished road
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    One of the best tools for understanding what size of an image any given projector can project and the brightness of that image is www.projectorcentral.com.
    A rule of thumb for any projector is the larger the image that is projected, the larger the visible pixels and the dimmer the image.
    About the "life size" question - that's really more of a relative question. Certainly the movies we watch at the cinema are not life size.
    My 2 cents.

  28. #28
    1 Iron Jsgregg is on a distinguished road
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    Okay, so I went out in the garage and set up the projector. I don't have a screen yet, so I projected onto a brilliant white wall. I think it looks great. I plan on using a 144" by 90" screen (12 x 7.5), so at that distance, it was great! I put Black Flag up to see how it would do with a fast moving game, and then opened up Optishot to check that as well. I have to say that I am really pleased. It looks really great at 12 x 7.5 using 1280 x 800. I sure felt life size when I was standing in front of it.


    photo-5.jpg photo-4 copy 2.jpg

  29. #29
    7 Iron Yongchai is on a distinguished road
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    Hey gregg,

    The pictures sure look nice and vibrant. However i notice that the environment looks pretty dark (ie your room, not the course). Is that just a matter of the camera auto adjusting due to bright screen, or did u switch off/block off all the lights in the room?

    If its not too much trouble, could u set up your room in a condition which u actually would be hitting balls, and post pictures again?

    Appreciate it. Thanks.

  30. #30
    1 Iron Jsgregg is on a distinguished road
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    I'm afraid for now, that is as good as it is going to get.

    Yes, I did have the lights turned out and took the pics with my iPhone. It actually is brighter in there than the camera will show because the projector is so bright. I currently have my garage set up as a woodshop, and as so, have very bright overhead lighting. Far too bright to leave on with a projector. I am still a ways away from being able to actually set up my sim in there.

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