Follow up to last weeks rules contest.

[twister]

Just a follow up question to last weeks answer.

Say that A holes a putt, and B has a putt to tie the hole. A then picks up B's ball is
A peanalized 1 stroke for picking up the ball or is the hole halved? (Assume this is a match play situation)

This could be very important if the match was dormie.

[Colby]

What happens if A had conceded the putt?

[twister]

Well according to my interpretation of the rules, if A picks up the ball without first saying that they are conceding the hole, then they would be penalized. So it is imperative that A announces that they are conceding the hole before picking up the ball. Otherwise B could turn around and call the penalty on A and then one putt to win the hole.

[Kilroy]

The act of picking up the ball is the concession. Dumb move for A. Let him putt it for a half.

[twister]

If the act of picking up the ball is the concession then from last weeks contest, the putt was conceded therefore the opponent wins the hole and there is no penalty.

[broken27]

The act of picking up the ball is the concession. Dumb move for A. Let him putt it for a half.

If the act of picking up the ball is the concession then from last weeks contest, the putt was conceded therefore the opponent wins the hole and there is no penalty.

2-4/4 Whether Picking Up Opponent’s Ball Is Concession of Next Stroke
Q. In match play, A holes a putt and, thinking he has won the match, picks up B’s ball. B then advises A that he (B) had a putt to win the hole. Did A concede B’s next stroke when he picked up B’s ball?

A. No. A incurred a penalty stroke under Rule 18-3b; B must replace his ball and now has two putts to win the hole.

Hope that clarifies it...

Dan

[Kilroy]

18-3. Ball at rest moved by Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play
If, other than during search for a player’s ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment moves the ball, touches it purposely or causes it to move, except as otherwise provided in the Rules, the opponent incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.

So I guess you cannot pick up your opponents ball to conceed the stroke. My bad.
You'd think I'd have known that after the rules question.

[jbrace]

18-3. Ball at rest moved by Opponent, Caddie or Equipment in Match Play
If, other than during search for a player’s ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment moves the ball, touches it purposely or causes it to move, except as otherwise provided in the Rules, the opponent incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.

So I guess you cannot pick up your opponents ball to conceed the stroke. My bad.
You'd think I'd have known that after the rules question.

This is all assuming that Player A has not actually said anything, correct? I always thought that once a player makes it clear (verbally) that he/she is conceding the opponents next shot, then that's it. They can pick the ball up, flick it with their putter, or whatever; as long as he has verbally made it clear that he is conceding the stroke. If player A says nothing and just picks up Player B's ball, then that's a penalty. Am I understanding this?

P.S. Where do I find the weekly rules contests???

[Kilroy]

I think that's it.

[broken27]

This is all assuming that Player A has not actually said anything, correct? I always thought that once a player makes it clear (verbally) that he/she is conceding the opponents next shot, then that's it. They can pick the ball up, flick it with their putter, or whatever; as long as he has verbally made it clear that he is conceding the stroke. If player A says nothing and just picks up Player B's ball, then that's a penalty. Am I understanding this?

P.S. Where do I find the weekly rules contests???

I am not sure that it matters if Player A picks up Player B's ball if the match has been decided. If A sinks it in 3 and B is lying 4 on the last hole, then A can not possibly lose the match.

Rules contest is linked from main Ottawagolf.com page

Dan

[Gary Hill]

I am not sure that it matters if Player A picks up Player B's ball if the match has been decided. If A sinks it in 3 and B is lying 4 on the last hole, then A can not possibly lose the match.

What if it is discovered that Player A has 15 clubs in his bag?

[Colby]

What if it is discovered that Player A has 15 clubs in his bag?

Player B can beat him with the extra club?

[broken27]

What if it is discovered that Player A has 15 clubs in his bag?

Would this have any impact on the application of the rule for improperly picking up the ball?

Dan

[Gary Hill]

Would this have any impact on the application of the rule for improperly picking up the ball?

Yes. If player A holes out and picks up player B's ball, player A incurs a penalty of one stroke.

Player B make make a claim until both players have left the putting green.

[broken27]

Yes. If player A holes out and picks up player B's ball, player A incurs a penalty of one stroke.

Player B make make a claim until both players have left the putting green.

Sorry, guess I wasn't clear... If a player has 15 clubs in his bag, and it's discovered with the above circumstances, wouldn't there be a loss of hole? Therefore the application of improper ball lifting rules is irrelevant as far as I can tell....

Why assess loss of hole AND a stroke penalty for the same hole?

Dan

[Gary Hill]

Sorry, guess I wasn't clear... If a player has 15 clubs in his bag, and it's discovered with the above circumstances, wouldn't there be a loss of hole? Therefore the application of improper ball lifting rules is irrelevant as far as I can tell....

Why assess loss of hole AND a stroke penalty for the same hole?

Dan

Player A would lose the first hole and the second hole for having too many clubs. Player A would also incur a penalty of one stroke on the hole being played for lifting player B's marker. The penalties have nothing to do with each other, but may or may not affect the result of the match.

[Colby]

Player A would lose the first hole and the second hole for having too many clubs. Player A would also incur a penalty of one stroke on the hole being played for lifting player B's marker. The penalties have nothing to do with each other, but may or may not affect the result of the match.

Gary,

With that in mind, if Player A had already lost holes 1 and 2, there is no further penalties for the extra club, correct?

[Gary Hill]

Gary, if Player A had already lost holes 1 and 2, there is no further penalties for the extra club, correct?

Sorry. I explained that incorrectly.
The penalty for excess clubs is NOT applied to a specific hole.
The penalty is applied to the state of the match at the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered.

For example:
The discovery of excess clubs is made at the eighth hole.
Nothing is done until the conclusion of the eight hole.
Once the state of match is announced after eight holes are concluded, the state of match is adjusted.

If you were more than 2 up — 2 “ups” are deducted.
If you were 2 up — the match is all square.
If you were 1 up — your opponent is 1 up.
If the match was all square — your opponent is 2 up.
If your opponent was 1 up — your opponent is 3 up.
If your opponent was 2 up — your opponent is 4 up.
If your opponent was more than 2 up — 2 “ups” are added to his “ups.”

[Colby]

Ahhh, got it now. Thanks Gary.

[Big_duck]

If your opponent was more than 2 up — 2 “ups” are added to his “ups.”

... then 15 clubs sure didn't help

[broken27]

But using last week's rules question as the example, they were on the LAST hole of the match.... My question is, if 'A' was two up or more (the reason he picked up his opponent's ball anyway), and "stroke-based" penalties can no longer affect the outcome of the match (basically he is now 2up with none to play)....

If the 15 club rule thing is determined on the 18th green, will 'A' forfeit the match, will it be all squared, or will A still win because he was 2 up with none to play? I suppose my question is "does the 2 hole maximum penalty apply"?

I know it's a rather stupid question, since the odds of all these things conspiring at once is pretty unlikely... But then again, if PGA guys are still forgetting to sign their scorecards, anything could happen...

Dan

[Gary Hill]

But using last week's rules question as the example, they were on the LAST hole of the match....

If the 15 club rule thing is determined on the 18th green

The last hole of the match is not necessarily the 18th green.

Just substitute 18th hole for 8th hole in my previous explanation.