Simulator/Launch Monitor Numbers

[BC MIST]

To those who have used a simulator or lauch monitor to try out or be fitted with a driver, I am curious as to what launch angle and/or what spin rate yeilded your greatest distance.

Played around with the sim at Golftown last night and hit my current driver to achieve launch angles of between 8 and 20 degrees, and was able to roughly determine what LA and SR got my longest drives.

If anyone remembers what numbers they achieved, and would be willing to share this info, I would like to relate mine to yours.

One factor that still makes me skeptical about such machines and the stats that they spit out, was the club head speed. With my own swing speed measuring device I can swing and generally predict to within 1 mph, what a given swing's speed was. The sim indicated that they was a 16 mph difference between my high and low swings, and while I know the high was OK, because it matched my own device, I also know that the low was totally off.

Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.

[jvincent]

From what I remember of the GolfTown simulator, it's not very accurate and it can't actually measure spin rate.

For a "true" spin rate measurement you need something like the Vector, which is camera based. Anything else is just calculating a number based on launch angle and velocity.

From what I remember of my session, and I'm pretty sure this is true from everything I have read, I got the best results at around 13 degrees with a ball speed that was in the 145-150MPH range. This is consistent with what I have read in several places which says that you want to launch at around 12* - 13* for people with non-PGA tour type swings.

Spin rate, if you believe Tom Wishon, is a big red herring.

Golf digest had a good article on this.

http://www.golfdigest.com/equipment/...hmonitors.html

[Jeany]

Taylor Made is indicating a peak at 13 launch angle with spin at 3000...others are between 13-15 launch with spin between 2500-3000...optimum range. Vector is one of the best...Go and see Al's clubhouse....very professional

[BC MIST]

Taylor Made is indicating a peak at 13 launch angle with spin at 3000...others are between 13-15 launch with spin between 2500-3000...optimum range. Vector is one of the best...Go and see Al's clubhouse....very professional

Interesting numbers. My longest drive had a launch in the 13* range with an indicated spin rate around 3100 rpm's. Now, if that spin rate is just a mathematical calculation, I question the validity of the number. I want to know what the actual number is.

My numbers came from my 7* SMT 455 Deep Bore, which I can hit low or very high, if I wish. The wizards would say that I need "more loft," however, after being given a 10.5 Cleveland driver, and without knowing what loft it was, my LA was higher, my SR was higher and my distance was lower. Perhaps the Vector might throw up some meaningful numbers.

I am very fortunate to play with a number of very good golfers in tournaments and with ONE exception, and I mean ONE, they all hit a medium to low driving trajectory shot that maximizes available roll. My longest T shots occur when I keep the ball down. Sure, carry distance may be longer with a higher shot, but not overall distance. Still skeptical.

[jvincent]

The launch monitors are really best at calculating maximum carry, which is what applies to the average golfer.

If you look at the majority of golfers, most struggle to hit the driver a TOTAL of 250 yards and as such need to keep the ball in the air as long as possible.

With my speed / launch conditions I generally carry the ball 240-250 pretty consistently. Sometimes it hops backwards a yard or two when it lands, like two weeks ago in windy/wet conditions, other times it rolls an extra 30-40 yards.

Total distance depends on so many other factors; draw vs fade, terrain, etc, that once you've figured out your best conditions for maximum carry, then you're probably going to get maximum distance out of that.

[Jeany]

it all depend of you angle of attack as well plus if you play with a low bend soft tip shaft

[el tigre]

Interesting numbers. My longest drive had a launch in the 13* range with an indicated spin rate around 3100 rpm's. Now, if that spin rate is just a mathematical calculation, I question the validity of the number. I want to know what the actual number is.

In my experience, ALL distance numbers from simulators are suspect because they are simply mathematical calculations based on averages. The only data that is truly accurate from a simulator is what is actually measured, which varies from model to model.

Virtually every simulator I have come across has a built-in bias against very high launch angles and very low launch angles. They ALWAYS calculate much shorter distances for these shots, even though I seen many golfers with these launch angles hit the ball a ton on the course. There just seems to be too many variables in a golf shot for these machines to account for them all. Perhaps a "launch monitor" is a little more sophisticated and does a better job - I've never tried one. And if your normal shot is a "medium" trajectory, the calculations might be pretty accurate. But IMHO, the entire process of using a simulator to determine optimal launch angles is flawed because the distance caluculations cannot be trusted.

Simulators ARE useful in equipment testing for the data that is actually measured. If you already knew what your optimal launch angle, etc. was (perhaps through testing at a driving range?), a simulator could help you find the driver that delivers it. If you want to bring your trajectory up or down, the simulator will tell you which club does that. Just don't believe the pretty picture on the screen or any of the distance numbers it shows you.

[BC MIST]

The name that I trust in the golf industry to give honest, accurate and meaningful information, is Tom Wishon. The links below will give some information about his company's Trajectory software, but will also debunk the myth that more loft will always increase our driving distance.

Interestingly, in the second case study, a golfer who carried the ball about the same distance, with a variety of lofts, was given the recommendation to use the lowest loft and lowest flying shot, to maximize performance.

http://www.wishongolf.com/tech_talk/..._software.html

http://www.wishongolf.com/trajectory/

[mberube]

« Higher loft creates longer drives » We must understand that this saying is true for the average amateur. Most amateur spin the ball sideways creating slices and/or hooks. The more loft you have, the less sidespin you get resulting in longer distances. This is why 3W are recommended for beginners.

Launch monitors were created on mechanical swinging machines. This is the perfect swing, making it easy to test different launch angles, swing speed, spin rates and distance. The database in the launch monitor is what it’s referred to every time a ball is hit from a real player. Are they accurate? I think so. Most people are shocked to see that they don’t hit the ball as long as they thought.

Higher or lower trajectory? My vote is High ball flight. Most if not all long hitters on tour hit the ball sky high. I have seen them first hand.

I hit the ball longer then the average golfer. I hit very high. I can’t tell you what is my launch angle cause I never tried a LM. I have never come across a player that hits the ball low, come close to the distance of my drives on a good day. All the long ball hitter at my club hit the ball high.

[Andru]

Golftown has a Vector Launch monitor as well. I've used the Vector

Avg Ball Speed. Was 158
Lanch Angle Avg. 11.5 degrees
Spin rate Avg. 3324

Carry was approx. 268. on the sim and Approx. 262. in real fall conditions. Using a Bushnell Yardage finder at the marshes and GPS.

I higher launch angle yielded more carry distance on the sim. Somewhere around 12.5-13 degrees got me 275 on the sim. No outdoor example though.

It's a nice guide to get you started. I feel as you do there's no replacing watching the ball flight.

[Andru]

I have to concur here the pros do hit it much higher than the avg JOE. Hank Kuene, Tiger, VJ, Ernie, Sergio, Phil, etc etc All hit the ball very high There are exceptions. Chad Campbell, and Justin Leonard hit fairly low shots and they drive the ball longer than most.

Also we have to define low and high. They're very generic terms at his point. What you call high might be medium to somone else.

[Ruskie]

Golftown has a Vector Launch monitor as well. I've used the Vector

Hmm, that's strange. I went there about 3-4 weeks ago to try some shafts, and they told me all they had was the simulator...

[Sakuraba]

A friend of mine when he was a junior age 17 and playing at a 3 index, was known to hit the odd "miss" with his driver as follows: struck the ball with a 9 deg driver, standard tee height, took a divot after impact, his ball scuffed off the end of the tee box and still carried 270 yrds. He did not always take the divot or scuff the tee box, but his trajectory was INCREDIBLY low for the 1st 100 yards or so. When he hit it well, he was carrying 300 yrds. He remains to this day the longest hitter I've played with, although today he doesn't drive it that way at all, nor does he get the mammoth yards any more. This was I guess 8-9 years ago. But I thought I'd bring it up as it was very unusual and certainly the lowest possible take-off trajectory.

[Ruskie]

I guess the balls had a lot more spin off the driver back then, so you would need to have a low launch angle to prevent balooning... Modern balls have special layers to reduce the spin off the driver, while still spinning hard off the irons, so now you need a higher angle to hit it farther.

[Andru]

Hmm, that's strange. I went there about 3-4 weeks ago to try some shafts, and they told me all they had was the simulator...

Not Strange it's there. Golftown Kanata. Tel: 613-254-7064 Uf you feel the need to confirm for yourself.

I've also used a LM at Artisan Golf with Don. Though I'm not sure which LM he has. Similar results.

[Ruskie]

Not Strange it's there. Golftown Kanata. Tel: 613-254-7064 Uf you feel the need to confirm for yourself.

Andru, I'm not questioning your post, not need to get jumpy. I'm just surprised they told me no when I specifically asked for a launch monitor. And yes, I called them before going and they did say they had one... Must've ran into a new employee or something...

[Bellyvo]

Golf Town just received a launch monitor a couple weeks ago. Its the vector machine i think and i'm not too sure what they charge, but i do know that they do have staff members that have been vector trained and certified.

[jvincent]

Golf Town just received a launch monitor a couple weeks ago. Its the vector machine i think and i'm not too sure what they charge, but i do know that they do have staff members that have been vector trained and certified.

I had a session on the Vector at Golf town a couple of weeks ago.

There's a promotion for Leaderboard members untin the 22nd ($45). I think the regular price is $100.

Pretty cool toy. I hit my regular driver / 3W and a selection of demos in different shafts.

The results: My current driver and 3W (Wishon 515GRT) were the best of the bunch. The shaft I'm playing in my driver right now is just a hair too stiff (NV65-S) so my launch conditions are just a hair off.

My specs: 150 MPH ball speed, 11* launch, 2800 RPM.

Ideally I need to get to about 13* launch and 3300 RPM. I've got a replacement shaft (NVS65-S) which should improve my launch conditions just enough.

I'm going to spend some time on one of the simulators in driving range / club fitting mode with the current shaft before swapping it out and comparing.

EDIT: Had the wrong RPM for my optimum.

[jvincent]

On a related note, I found the following data online.

It's a chart that shows the ball speed, launch angle, and spin combinations for maximum distance. Important to note that they ARE NOT all the same.

Ball speed, Optimum launch, Optimum spin
130, 14 to 16, 3500 to 3800
140, 13 to 15, 3300 to 3550
150, 12.5 to 14, 3000 to 3300
160, 12 to 13.5, 2750 to 3200
170, 11 to 12, 2500 to 2700
180, 9.5 to 10.5, 2350 to 2600
190, 8.5 to 10, 2000 to 2400
200, 7 to 9, 1950 to 2150
210, 6 to 8.5, 1700 to 2000

[BC MIST]

On a related note, I found the following data online.

It's a chart that shows the ball speed, launch angle, and spin combinations for maximum distance. Important to note that they ARE NOT all the same.

Ball speed, Optimum launch, Optimum spin
130, 14 to 16, 3500 to 3800
140, 13 to 15, 3300 to 3550
150, 12.5 to 14, 3000 to 3300
160, 12 to 13.5, 2750 to 3200
170, 11 to 12, 2500 to 2700
180, 9.5 to 10.5, 2350 to 2600
190, 8.5 to 10, 2000 to 2400
200, 7 to 9, 1950 to 2150
210, 6 to 8.5, 1700 to 2000

Thanks for posting the numbers. I am assuming that these numbers will yeild the longest carry versus longest distance, or is roll factored into the equation? On the launch monitor, is the ball speed actually measured or is a formula used to determine it?

Is your driver the Wishon 515 GRT? I made a 515GRT 9.5 with the Interflexx low launch shaft and found that it flies way too high. The 515GRT 5 wood is the longest 5 wood that I have ever had and by a significant margin. Unfortunatey the 3 wood is back ordered to later this month. TWGT makes great sticks.

[jvincent]

Thanks for posting the numbers. I am assuming that these numbers will yeild the longest carry versus longest distance, or is roll factored into the equation? On the launch monitor, is the ball speed actually measured or is a formula used to determine it?

Is your driver the Wishon 515 GRT? I made a 515GRT 9.5 with the Interflexx low launch shaft and found that it flies way too high. The 515GRT 5 wood is the longest 5 wood that I have ever had and by a significant margin. Unfortunatey the 3 wood is back ordered to later this month. TWGT makes great sticks.

These numbers were from a presentation at http://www.benspowergolf.com/instruct_proscorner.asp

It didn't say if it was total distance or just carry but the numbers pretty much jive with the Vector analysis, which tries to maximize both distance and roll at the same time. The Vector analysis is cool because it will show you which spin rates cause the ball to balloon, creating greater carry but less roll, and vice-versa.

The Vector measures ball speed and spin directly based on the distance the ball travels/rotates between the two sample points. The only things that are extrapolated are carry distance and roll. It was pretty much bang on for me, maybe 5 yards short.

Yes, I've got the 11* 515GRT driver with the NV65. Of all the drivers I've ever hit, this is by far my favourite. My normal ball flight is a little on the low side even with the 11*, which correlates to the launch monitor data. My shaft and angle of attack combination keeps the ball down just a hair below optimal. I've hit the 515 with an Interflexx (can't remember which one) and didn't like it compared to the NV65. I'm hoping the NVS65 will be my magic combo.

I ordered the 3W as soon as it came out. It's the same deal as the 5W, crazy long. I've hit some tee shots with it that are just amazing. It's also really nice off the fairway. You won't be disappointed. I'm debating replacing my 3-iron with the 5W.

[BC MIST]

Yes, I've got the 11* 515GRT driver with the NV65. Of all the drivers I've ever hit, this is by far my favourite. My normal ball flight is a little on the low side even with the 11*, which correlates to the launch monitor data. My shaft and angle of attack combination keeps the ball down just a hair below optimal. I've hit the 515 with an Interflexx (can't remember which one) and didn't like it compared to the NV65. I'm hoping the NVS65 will be my magic combo.
I ordered the 3W as soon as it came out. It's the same deal as the 5W, crazy long. I've hit some tee shots with it that are just amazing. It's also really nice off the fairway. You won't be disappointed. I'm debating replacing my 3-iron with the 5W.

I gather that the Wishon 515GRT's are the first fairway woods to be manufactured with a coefficient of restitution of .83, which would explain some of the increased distance. A golfer who has a higher swing speed like yourself would get even more out of them than a peashooter like me. I find the flight of the ball interesting compared to my Steelhead Plus III's. It's high right off the face, but then just seems to bore through the air and go forever, just like a 7 iron from a flier lie in the rough that goes 20 yards longer than normal.

I also bought a couple of the Wishon Hybrids, 321LI 1 and 321LI 3, and have tried them as possible replacements for my 3 and 4 irons. Again the flight is higher, longer and most importantly, straighter, however, they do not have the nice feel that most Wishon clubs have, but who cares if the ball is going straighter.

[jvincent]

I find the flight of the ball interesting compared to my Steelhead Plus III's. It's high right off the face, but then just seems to bore through the air and go forever, just like a 7 iron from a flier lie in the rough that goes 20 yards longer than normal.

Interesting that you bring this up. I've definitely noticed this, especially off the tee.

The first time I hit one off the tee, Stonebridge West #9, the ball took off and but didn't really climb as high as I thought it would. When if finally landed, it had cleared the bunkers in the air and continued to roll down the hill.

Granted, it was a down wind, but the wind wasn't that strong and I was inside 100yds. I had not expected it to go anywhere close to that far.

For those of you counting, that ~290 off the tee, with a 3 wood?!?!?

The COR on the 3W is indeed 0.83. A combination of the steel and the fact that it's a cup faced design based on what Tom W has said over on the Wishon forums.