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  1. #1
    Arrow shooter Chieflongtee is on a distinguished road Chieflongtee's Avatar
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    Baseball bombshell

    Roger Clements, Andy Petite ,Eric Gagné and the list goes on

    http://www.tsn.ca/mlb/feature/?fid=11302&hubname=
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  2. #2
    Major Poster EDSGOLF is on a distinguished road
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    WOW, they all used drugs?
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    GolfPig of the Year 2006 Golfbum is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDSGOLF View Post
    WOW, they all used drugs?

    Does that come as a shock to you?
    My opinions are my own, I do not follow others.

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    NFL Guru fundonny is on a distinguished road fundonny's Avatar
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    I'm sure there's more. Let's face it, MLB had zero policy against that use of steroids and HGH etc. The guys were making millions, and wanted to keep making millions within the rules of their sport. Sad and MLB has no one to blame but themselves.
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  5. #5
    Hall of Fame mpare is on a distinguished road mpare's Avatar
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    Mitchell's Report - Baseball

    The list of players named in Mitchell's report is sickeningly long: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3153646

    One has to be sympathetic to Mitchell's conclusion that the Commissioner of Baseball and MLB are not free from blame in all of this. One would have had to be willfully blind to the obvious not to have noticed the rapid physiological changes in many of these players, and yet neither MLB nor the Commissioner did anything.

    I've been a baseball fan for 53 years. I'm not impressed. Were it up to me, any and all of the records of those who were shown to be using performance enhancing drugs would be erased from the record. Cheaters have no place in record books, nor do they belong in the Hall of Fame. Were it otherwise, MLB would have to rename their hallowed hall to the Hall of Shame. Willie Mays, Jackie Robinson, Bob Gibson and all the other greats deserve better than this.
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    Hall of Fame sillywilly is on a distinguished road sillywilly's Avatar
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    I'm with you man. What a sad day for baseball. I think all these players should be banned from baseball and their stats wipped. What a shame.
    willy
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  7. #7
    Hall of Fame spackler is on a distinguished road spackler's Avatar
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    Before steroids and HGH, it was greenies. I doubt baseball has been clean since the mid 60s. That said, it is a dark, dark era for baseball and I think the commissioner and owners deserve equal blame for ignoring, maybe even subtely encouraging it.

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    Hall of Fame sillywilly is on a distinguished road sillywilly's Avatar
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    agreed, I really hope the fans stop going to the games. Hit the owners where it hurts, in the pocket! We all know its not going to happen though. People don't care about that stuff. So sad. I was already annoyed with clemens for all this BS in this contract. Private jet, doesn't travel with team if he isn't pitching... plays 1/2 a season... but I said "you know what, he is the rocket, he deserves it" well not anymore. Some will argue that it only started towards the end of his career but I don't care. This is def worse than killing a few dogs. Lock him up
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  9. #9
    Hall of Fame mpare is on a distinguished road mpare's Avatar
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    Did you notice Bud Selig's inability to acknowledge that he too was blameworthy in all of this? He has set a fine example for obfuscation for all the players, their agents and lawyers. The string of denials and lies that we'll hear in the next weeks and months will make Ben Johnson look like an amateur when it comes to lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by spackler View Post
    Before steroids and HGH, it was greenies. I doubt baseball has been clean since the mid 60s. That said, it is a dark, dark era for baseball and I think the commissioner and owners deserve equal blame for ignoring, maybe even subtely encouraging it.
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    Forum Idiot Indio is on a distinguished road Indio's Avatar
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    They just interviewed a legal analyst and his take on this is they won't be able to do much legally to most of these guys because the statute of limitations has run out on it because most of the usage was in the mid 90's.

    Apparently the only damaging thing they can do to most of the players is to ban them from ever entering the hall of fame and revoking ny records they set.

    Of course Clemmons is viamently denying he ever knowingly took steroids and his lawyer says he is contemplating suing for slander.

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    Consistently present Kiwi is on a distinguished road Kiwi's Avatar
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    Who knows what the truth really is but it amazes me how the American "justice" system works. Throw out a few unsubstantiated rumors mixed with some uncorroborated "facts" then challenge the guys to prove the didn't do it. Seems to me that if they cannot find enough to prosecute then they just slander them and ruin their reputation. Really, guilt based on a bill of sale in the name of a baseball player with the shipping address of the LA Dodgers ball park. Maybe guilty of stupidity.... Hooooooray for the land of the free and the home of the brave... IMHO

  12. #12
    Forum Idiot Indio is on a distinguished road Indio's Avatar
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    Canseco has an interesting take on the records that were set during the past 10 to 15 years. Why take the record away? He says it was an even playing field because everyone was taking some form of steroid.
    I can see it now, instead of an * beside each record, there would be an * for the years 1990 through 2005.
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  13. #13
    Hall of Fame Hacker is on a distinguished road Hacker's Avatar
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    I find all of this quite amusing and very pathetic. The US congress is basically on a Witch Hunt as far as I'm concerned.

    Before spending millions trying to clean up the 'roid problem in a SPORT where athletes make millions for playing a GAME I'd suggest that they spend a little time going after 'Real' drug pushers and users and perhaps pay a little attention to the number of citizens who are living in poverty in every major US city.

    This really is quite pathetic especially since most of these substances have only recently been 'banned' in MLB.

    I wonder what would happen to me if I wrote a tell all book that fingered a bunch of people for doing a bunch of bad things with nothing more than hearsay, rumours and conjecture as my proof

    Oh yeah, and can someone explain to me how Steroids can help with my hand eye coordination because IMO that is the most important skill when it comes to hitting the ball............I can see how they help pitchers but not hitter

  14. #14
    Hall of Fame Hacker is on a distinguished road Hacker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDSGOLF View Post
    WOW, they all used drugs?
    ALLEGED to have used drugs............

  15. #15
    GolfPig of the Year 2006 Golfbum is on a distinguished road
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    You know what?

    WHAT?

    I could care less if those cowboys fill their veins with dope. It isn't my body! Come on, if that guy cheats then this guy is going to cheat to keep up with that guy. The circle forms and fills in.

    Does it really matter to you or me if a baseball player uses roids? I know it doesn't matter to me. As I said it is his body not mine.

    People seem shocked about this incident.
    My opinions are my own, I do not follow others.

  16. #16
    Moderator The Saint is on a distinguished road The Saint's Avatar
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    I care if they are getting in the record books. What they do to their bodies is their problem. But if they are racking up points over someone who doesn't inject then I am totally against it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Golfbum View Post
    You know what?

    WHAT?

    I could care less if those cowboys fill their veins with dope. It isn't my body! Come on, if that guy cheats then this guy is going to cheat to keep up with that guy. The circle forms and fills in.

    Does it really matter to you or me if a baseball player uses roids? I know it doesn't matter to me. As I said it is his body not mine.

    People seem shocked about this incident.
    Some people are like Slinkies... they're really good for nothing, ... but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs...

  17. #17
    Major Poster Chambokl is on a distinguished road Chambokl's Avatar
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    Hey Rick,

    I know we shouldn't care about what they do with their body. I don't really care about record book neither but what I find sad is the border line player.

    Take hockey, I know some players that are just on the cusp of the NHL. Some played in Europe for 10 to 12 years, some have quit hockey, some are still trying to make it playing in the AHL. How madening would that be if they discovered 10 years from now that most of the players they were competing against were taking steroid. I am sure you also know a few players that didn't make it to the NHL despite their talent and dedication.

    I see name like FP Santangelo, Tim Lakers, Mike Lansing, etc... who were borderline players. I find it sad for the players that they beat out. The difference could be about $10 millions lifetime earning (if not more).

    I don't really know what should be done but ....

  18. #18
    Hopelessly Addicted Shivas Irons is on a distinguished road Shivas Irons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fundonny View Post
    Sad and MLB has no one to blame but themselves.
    Zactly. The media is calling this a "bombshell" but it's not really surprise to anyone. If I cared about baseball I might care about this, but I don't so I don't.
    Al Gore didn't invent the internet, but he did invent global warming.

  19. #19
    GolfPig of the Year 2006 Golfbum is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chambokl View Post
    Hey Rick,

    I know we shouldn't care about what they do with their body. I don't really care about record book neither but what I find sad is the border line player.

    Take hockey, I know some players that are just on the cusp of the NHL. Some played in Europe for 10 to 12 years, some have quit hockey, some are still trying to make it playing in the AHL. How madening would that be if they discovered 10 years from now that most of the players they were competing against were taking steroid. I am sure you also know a few players that didn't make it to the NHL despite their talent and dedication.

    I see name like FP Santangelo, Tim Lakers, Mike Lansing, etc... who were borderline players. I find it sad for the players that they beat out. The difference could be about $10 millions lifetime earning (if not more).

    I don't really know what should be done but ....
    Nah I don't buy into that theory. Those guys on the edge look into the window and know what is going on above them. They can juice up too if they decide to do so. If they think it will further their career you can bet they'd do it. Otherwise they get left behind.

    It is sad really when you think about that athletes do that to further a career.

    But it is happening, it has been happening for years.


    As for records. I could care less if Joe Smoe scored 150 goals in the NHL this season. I could care less if Jack Smack hit 120 home runs last season.

    People pay big bucks to see high end athletes perform, bottom line. People go to a ball game to see home runs, not hit and run plays. People go to hockey games to see goals scored, not a 1-1 tie after 60 minutes. People go to football games to see dazzling runs, big passes and bone crushing hits.

    The sporting world is being driven by big bucks. Hence the drugs involved to perform at those levels. As I said it is sad to see it happen but it happened.

    Look at the LPGA and PGA. They are concerned about the same issue in their sport. Golf has always been the "CLEAN SPORT" other than smoking and alcohol. Now the tours are concerned. Why all of a sudden are they concerned? Surely not because of Gary Player's rant about drugs.

    I think John Daly has been on growth hormones since he won the PGA years ago. I mean look at how much he has grown
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  20. #20
    Major Poster EDSGOLF is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golfbum View Post
    Does that come as a shock to you?

    AAAAhhhh.....hhhmmmm.....NO.
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  21. #21
    Hall of Fame jonf is on a distinguished road jonf's Avatar
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    Bonds is the perfect example of why we should despise those athletes who use performance enhancing drugs. He had always been a great all around baseball player. One of few 40-40 men. Never hit over 50 home runs. Then one year, he comes to training camp with an extra 40 pounds of muscle, and proceeds to hit 73 home runs. Then manages to eek out a few more years (on the strength of his steroids) and stick around long enough to break the record. Nobody can take away the fact that he was always a fantastic baseball player, but he never would have approached the home run records that he got without steroids. Hee took the easy way out.

    The reason they're suddenly concerned about golf is simple. 1 - golfers are bigger than ever, so it certainly wouldn't be shocking if they were doping. 2 - the availability of designer drugs that can now be catered to the needs of golfers. 3 - Golfers are not some mythical race of super moral people. They are humans, humans do stupid, selfish things. I guarantee you there are people who see Tiger Woods tearing up the PGA tour while literally busting through his shirt, and decide the only way they have a hope is to start juicing it.

  22. #22
    Championship Cup PEI Golfing is on a distinguished road PEI Golfing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacker View Post
    I wonder what would happen to me if I wrote a tell all book that fingered a bunch of people for doing a bunch of bad things with nothing more than hearsay, rumours and conjecture as my proof

    Oh yeah, and can someone explain to me how Steroids can help with my hand eye coordination because IMO that is the most important skill when it comes to hitting the ball............I can see how they help pitchers but not hitter
    Hacker, you should take a look at the entire Mitchell Report http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb;_ylt=Aqx...JMzA350Wo5nYcB. It is a 409 page report downloadable pdf (5.92 mb).
    Kirk Radomski former New York Mets clubhouse employee has more than just his word on what was going on. The corroboration took a number of forms:
    (i) Admission by 11 players that Radomski supplied them with performance enhancing substances, as Radomski had said in interviews; (ii) Cheques or money orders written to Radomski in appropriate amounts. Copies of a number of these cheques written and signed by the players in question are in the report !!!
    What is amazing if the players knew what they were doing was wrong, why did many of them pay Radomski with signed cheques and not cash........!!! I guess the smarter ones used cash payments..........
    Some of the players with signed cheques or money orders in the report are:

    David Segui
    Rondell White
    Jason Grimsley
    Greg Zaun
    FP Santangelo (our beloved Former Lynx with # retired)
    GlenAllen Hill
    Mo Vaughn
    Denny Neagle
    Mike Lansing
    Kent Mercker
    Miguel Tejada
    Fernando Vina
    and a number of others

    Hacker you are correct in saying that eye-hand coordination is the most important skill. However, next time you watch a ball game mark down how many fly balls are hit to the warning track or just short of the track. You will be amazed there are quite a few. What the increased muscle mass does is allows many of these balls which would have been flyball outs to land in the bleachers for a homerun. More homeruns will pad the stats and = BIG $$ Dollars during contract negotiations.

    Regarding steroids or HGH aiding pitchers you will note it is more beneficial in aiding in injury recovery than in enhancing velocity or accuracy. As the report points out pitchers such as Clemens and Pettitte used it more to rebound from the wear and tear pitching causes especially on older guys such as them.
    "So many moving parts. Your whole body's moving, and this ball is not moving. It's standing still, laughing at you." [B] Tiger Woods[/B]

  23. #23
    Consistently present Kiwi is on a distinguished road Kiwi's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Props

    Quote Originally Posted by Hacker View Post
    I find all of this quite amusing and very pathetic. The US congress is basically on a Witch Hunt as far as I'm concerned.

    Before spending millions trying to clean up the 'roid problem in a SPORT where athletes make millions for playing a GAME I'd suggest that they spend a little time going after 'Real' drug pushers and users and perhaps pay a little attention to the number of citizens who are living in poverty in every major US city.

    This really is quite pathetic especially since most of these substances have only recently been 'banned' in MLB.

    I wonder what would happen to me if I wrote a tell all book that fingered a bunch of people for doing a bunch of bad things with nothing more than hearsay, rumours and conjecture as my proof

    Oh yeah, and can someone explain to me how Steroids can help with my hand eye coordination because IMO that is the most important skill when it comes to hitting the ball............I can see how they help pitchers but not hitter
    I am only following this because it is hard to get away from it, in both the electronic and print media, if you are at all interested in sports. Heard an interesting comment on th news today that the principle sources for this report are two (2) gentlemen, and I use the term loosely. One is accused of shooting up one of the Blue Jays and the other (but perhaps the same dude) is pending sentencing and cut a deal. Had to laugh at the author of the report commenting on the truthfullness of the last "witness". Said that he HAD TO BE telling the truth because he would lose his deal if he was found to be lying. HA! Guess the author never took a college class in human psychology... cut the deal, take my chances. Unbelievable... witch hunt is right. Bet in the years to come all it will boil down to is some income tax evasion charges. But who among us is not guilty of that?

  24. #24
    Championship Cup PEI Golfing is on a distinguished road PEI Golfing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
    Bet in the years to come all it will boil down to is some income tax evasion charges. But who among us is not guilty of that?
    As the "many" baseball analysts have said a report such as this was long overdue.
    By naming "big name" allstars and future hall of famers it perhaps will finally give MLB a wake-up call to clean up the damm game once and for all........

    None of the players are going to jail with the exception of Barry who could go for lying under oath..................
    The result to the players who got "caught" and as baseball insiders have said there are certainly many more names out there, will be the possiblility of never being voted into the Hall of Fame. Those who are doing broadcast work may find their contracts not renewed. Loss of endorsement contracts etc...............
    "So many moving parts. Your whole body's moving, and this ball is not moving. It's standing still, laughing at you." [B] Tiger Woods[/B]

  25. #25
    Hall of Fame Hacker is on a distinguished road Hacker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEI Golfing View Post


    Hacker, you should take a look at the entire Mitchell Report http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb;_ylt=Aqx...JMzA350Wo5nYcB. It is a 409 page report downloadable pdf (5.92 mb).
    Kirk Radomski former New York Mets clubhouse employee has more than just his word on what was going on. The corroboration took a number of forms:
    (i) Admission by 11 players that Radomski supplied them with performance enhancing substances, as Radomski had said in interviews; (ii) Cheques or money orders written to Radomski in appropriate amounts. Copies of a number of these cheques written and signed by the players in question are in the report !!!
    What is amazing if the players knew what they were doing was wrong, why did many of them pay Radomski with signed cheques and not cash........!!! I guess the smarter ones used cash payments..........
    Some of the players with signed cheques or money orders in the report are:

    David Segui
    Rondell White
    Jason Grimsley
    Greg Zaun
    FP Santangelo (our beloved Former Lynx with # retired)
    GlenAllen Hill
    Mo Vaughn
    Denny Neagle
    Mike Lansing
    Kent Mercker
    Miguel Tejada
    Fernando Vina
    and a number of others

    Hacker you are correct in saying that eye-hand coordination is the most important skill. However, next time you watch a ball game mark down how many fly balls are hit to the warning track or just short of the track. You will be amazed there are quite a few. What the increased muscle mass does is allows many of these balls which would have been flyball outs to land in the bleachers for a homerun. More homeruns will pad the stats and = BIG $$ Dollars during contract negotiations.

    Regarding steroids or HGH aiding pitchers you will note it is more beneficial in aiding in injury recovery than in enhancing velocity or accuracy. As the report points out pitchers such as Clemens and Pettitte used it more to rebound from the wear and tear pitching causes especially on older guys such as them.
    If the evidence is a strong as you think it is then tell me why no one is facing charges? Steroids are illegal so these lads should be going to trial......fact is, it is one thing to make claims and a totally different thing to be able to PROVE those claims in a court of law............

    But you missed my point, my point was that this Steroid Witch Hunt is a total joke when compared to some of the "Real" problems facing the US such as the street drug problem and poverty

  26. #26
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    This thread has nothing to do with "the street drug problem and poverty"

    There are always concerns that someone thinks are more important. Sure they may well be more important, but that does not mean this should be swept under the rug and ignored.
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  27. #27
    Forum Idiot Indio is on a distinguished road Indio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacker View Post
    If the evidence is a strong as you think it is then tell me why no one is facing charges? Steroids are illegal so these lads should be going to trial......fact is, it is one thing to make claims and a totally different thing to be able to PROVE those claims in a court of law............

    But you missed my point, my point was that this Steroid Witch Hunt is a total joke when compared to some of the "Real" problems facing the US such as the street drug problem and poverty
    Lets not lose sight of the fact that this is not an investigation by the authorities. This is MLB that comissioned at independent review of the state of illegal drug us in baseball. I think the commish was having trouble getting the players union to buy in to everthing and this was his way of circumventing it. He has done damage to the game, but as in everything ese, we will all forget this in a few years and he will have be seen to have clened up the game (maybe).

    What bothered me the most about the report is that Mitchel recommended that he not go after the players, something like forgive and forget.
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  28. #28
    Hall of Fame mpare is on a distinguished road mpare's Avatar
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    I fail to see how he has done damage to the game by commissioning Mitchell to do the report. The game was already being damaged by rampant drug use. Fans were already suspicious and mistrusting of the players and anything that came out of their mouths in that regard. You'll never convince me that ignoring that elephant in the room was a good strategy for baseball. Shinning the light of day on this problem may well break the apparent fascination for, and acceptance of, the use of these drugs in MLB. If this report reduces the use of steroids and other performance enhancing drugs, then I say that the game, the players and the fans have benefited.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indio View Post
    ... He has done damage to the game, but as in everything ese, we will all forget this in a few years and he will have be seen to have clened up the game (maybe). ...
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  29. #29
    Forum Idiot Indio is on a distinguished road Indio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpare View Post
    I fail to see how he has done damage to the game by commissioning Mitchell to do the report. The game was already being damaged by rampant drug use. Fans were already suspicious and mistrusting of the players and anything that came out of their mouths in that regard. You'll never convince me that ignoring that elephant in the room was a good strategy for baseball. Shinning the light of day on this problem may well break the apparent fascination for, and acceptance of, the use of these drugs in MLB. If this report reduces the use of steroids and other performance enhancing drugs, then I say that the game, the players and the fans have benefited.
    Mike, I agree with you but I guess what I meant was the he has made it 'official'. I am not condeming the fact that the investigation was commissioned at all and hopefully the players union will get on board. Unfortunately the 10 million cost of the report will seem like a drop in the bucket once the legal battles and lawsuits start. We have a lot of cornered individuals who are going to come out swinging as their money making abilities depend on it. This has the potential for becoming very ugly.
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  30. #30
    Hall of Fame mpare is on a distinguished road mpare's Avatar
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    I agree with you, Bob, that this will undoubtedly become ugly. But that may well be the price to pay to clean up this mess. The players and their entourages, as well as the owners, were certainly not going to do the right thing if left to their own devices. No doubt, we'll see their spokespersons railing against the injustice of it all, much like we saw and continue to see, in track and field and bike racing. In the end, the cheats will slink away once the truth has been disclosed.

    There's may be another way to deal with this, but it is not one which the players are likely to pursue. Here's the sound bite:

    In a refreshing bit of candour, the Baseball Players Association today admitted that many players used performance enhancing drugs during a time when the use of such drugs had, unfortunately, become quietly accepted. Yes it was wrong, but that was not readily apparent to those whose careers hung in the balance and whose judgment had become clouded. It's time to admit the errors of the past and to move forward. Toward that end, the Players Association together with MLB have agreed to implement the most stringent anti-drug policy in sports. That policy will see random testing combined with harsh penalties ranging from suspensions and fines, to lifetime bans from baseball. We intend to win back the trust of the fans. It begins today!

    Quote Originally Posted by Indio View Post
    Mike, I agree with you but I guess what I meant was the he has made it 'official'. I am not condeming the fact that the investigation was commissioned at all and hopefully the players union will get on board. Unfortunately the 10 million cost of the report will seem like a drop in the bucket once the legal battles and lawsuits start. We have a lot of cornered individuals who are going to come out swinging as their money making abilities depend on it. This has the potential for becoming very ugly.
    Proud member of the 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014 Ottawa Golf Ryder Cup teams.

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    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-12-2011, 10:53 PM
  2. Mitchell Bending Machine for sale
    By kubi in forum Components & Tools
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-19-2010, 08:17 AM
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  4. Mitchell, Wilson advance to Mid-Am final
    By Kilroy in forum Tour Talk
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-11-2008, 05:05 AM
  5. The Mitchell Co. LPGA Tournament Of Champions
    By Golfbum in forum Tour Talk
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    Last Post: 11-12-2006, 07:25 PM

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