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Gerry fades a ball to the right towards an area of bush. Thinking his ball may be lost he announces, "I will play a provisional." His provisional again fades towards the same area and he says, "I'll play another." In searching, he finds the 2nd and 3rd balls, but he does NOT find the original. What is the ruling?
Must play the 3rd ball and would be lying 5. Decision 27-2a/4
I am confused. Isn't the whole idea of a provisional is so that you would play the provisional in case you can't find your original shot?
I would guess it depends on whether his second ball is in play or not playable, or OB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Started2k3
3rd ball is NOT a provisional ball because all that was said was "I'll play another" and "provisional ball" was not explicitly stated.
The original is lost AND playing the 3rd ball renders the 2nd ball lost.
Exactly. The word provisional must be used. It is not necessary to state what the make and number of the ball, however, it IS a good idea if more than one provisional is used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Started2k3
I once hit three provisionals :grumpy: but found the original.:-)
I'd say he should play ball 2. When he states "i'll play another" the logic flows that he is stating that he is playing another provisional. The rule does not state that he must say the word provisional. It says he must inform them he will play a provisional, which, IMO, he has done.
To rule that "I'll play another" is not indicating a provisional in this situation is picking apart his statement to a level that borders on ridiculous.
The decision listed reads that he plays the 3rd ball without any announcement. in this situation, he announced he'd play another (provisional).
g8r While your opinion is a common one, the point of the thread was to show that it is indeed incorrect. It's not "picking apart his statement to a level that borders on ridiculous." it is applying what he said to the rule. The 3rd ball was not declared a provisional.
When you play one provisional does that in any way imply that all future balls from that tee are provisional?
Would you feel differently if he said "I'll play another" for his second ball?
If you want to play golf by the rules you can't be selective about which ones you follow.
From the answer to decision 27-2a/1:
Rule 27-2a specifically provides that the player must inform his opponent, marker or a fellow-competitor that he intends to play a provisional ball.
The player's statement must specifically mention the words “provisional ball” or must make it clear that he is proceeding under Rule 27-2a. Therefore, a player who says nothing has put another ball into play.
The following are examples of statements that do not satisfy the requirement of announcing a provisional ball:
(a) “That might be lost. I am going to re-load.”
(b) “That might be out of here.”
(c) “I'd better hit another one.”
(d) “I will never find that one. I'll play another.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Started2k3
Next time I'm going to declare "I am proceeding under rule 27-2a" :P
I wonder what else would qualify as a declaration of intent that would satisfy the rule. :scratchch
I would say yes, it does. You may not agree, and I can see how it is technically not "declaring a provisional" but the taken in context it is a continuance form his previous statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Kilbank
and if you really want to get technical:
statement 1: "I'm going to play a provisional"
statement 2: "I better play another one"
"another one" means a provsional.
example:
you ask "grab me a beer"
response "what kind?"
you respond "Keiths"
you finsih the beer and say "grab me another one please?" techincally you havent declared your desire for another beer, specifically a keiths, but its implied and understood as fact that you want a Keith's.
Yup, then he didnt declare a provisional.Quote:
Would you feel differently if he said "I'll play another" for his second ball?
Its not being selective. The decision quoted is not the same scenario, and we've heard in the past that decisions are specific to THAT situation and only that situation. In that decision, he doesn't say anything.Quote:
If you want to play golf by the rules you can't be selective about which ones you follow.
You just don't get it. You're playing golf not drinking beer.
Get a rule book and follow them.
The fact that the decision the question was based on is not an exact match does not invalidate the rule. The rule requires that you declare the ball provisional. Another decision specifically states that "I'll play another” is insufficient.
It's not up to us to agree or disagree with the rules. I find some of them kind of silly myself, but if I want to play by the rules, they are what they are, like it or not.
I'll have a Blue please :-)
What if someone said "I'll play another ball, in case my original ball is lost. If I find my original ball, I'll play that one." In this case, their words clearly demonstrate the intent of playing a provisional, but he doesn't actually use the word "provisional". Ball 2 in play?
What if someone says "I'll play a provisional", but doesn't specify "ball". We all assume, he's referring to playing a provisional ball, but if he doesn't actually say "ball", how do we know what he's referring to as playing a provisional? Perhaps a provisional swing? Ball 2 in play?
BTW - both these circumstances I believe are rediculous, and I wouldn't call someone in either case that ball 2 is in play. But, you guys are talking about applying the words exactly as demonstrated in the rule book, so where do you draw the line?
If you're playing in a friendly game of "flog" with your pals then do what you want but in a tournament you'd better have at least the word "provisional" in there or the ball you hit is in play. There's no such thing as a provisional swing in golf that I'm aware of. The rules are the rules.
The whole purpose of these rules discussions is to provide interested golfers with the correct information necessary to play by the rules. As Dan said above, there are rules that may seem silly or unnecessary to some, however, what is desired is to learn the rules so we can play by them.Quote:
Originally Posted by hackzaw
You say that you would not call someone for this particular rules infraction, and by extension then, rules that you don't agree with? As a player, the rules do not give the right to decide whether or not to "call" someone. It is your obligation to do so, to "protect the field." In fact, you are subject to disqualification for agreeing to waive the rules.
Now, many golfers unfortunately modify the rules to suit themselves and while it is not right, it is what it is. It's flog as Gerry says, not golf. When golfers modify the rules, do scores go up or down? If it is your Saturday morning group, no one cares. If it's The Ottawa Citizen tournament, everyone cares.
I wonder if people apply rules as selectively in games like poker. :scratchch
With all this beer talking....are you guys looking for a bartender??? LOL I have all the mentionned brands.
Sorry Dan I know it's off topic.
I do support the fact that you must use correct term that are in the rule book. If a playing partner declared that he will play another one in a tourney with markers, I'm sure it wouldn't pass.
Next time ask the player to be more specific. Is this other one a provisional?
Well, actually yes, they do. Things like tapping on the table to check, not announcing your raise, string betting, wrong person showing their hand first, showing one card, but not the second, etc. In the first 2 cases, there is implied action, similar to already announcing a provisional, hitting in the same place then syaing you'll hit another one. String betting is agianst the rules, but you see it all the time in home games, the bettor always shows their hand first, yet there are plenty of times where they fold without showing thier hand because somebody else jumped the gun on flipping their cards. Need I go on?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Kilbank
Its a bit condescending sometimes to hear that only the people that play by each and every rule are playing "golf", while the rest of us play "flog", this is the same elitist attitude that has traditionally been associated with golf. If you are playing pick up hockey with your friends and don't call offsides, or don't have penalties called, you're still playing hockey, not "yekcoh".
Your interpretation of the decision and situation is different than mine, but that doesn't mean that you are right just because you've taken a course on golf rules. Sometimes the rules aren't exaclty clear, and reading them word for word gives the wrong interpretation, hence the decision book.
one other thing:
This isn't just saying "i'll play another". You are taking one statement out of context with the previous one. You can't do that.
Example: What if someone says "I think I might play a provisional"....then re-tees. He didn't say that he WOULD play a provisional, in you strict interpretation of the rules, that ball is now in play. Is this ridiculous, or is it correct?
If I smoke my second ball down the middle, I could argue that I never declared a provisional, but was rather thinking about it, but decided not to.
Is there any doubt that from the previous posts that when one wishes to play a provisional, one says, "This is a provisional?" To say "I will play another," does not mean provisional, it means ball. The purpose of this exercise is to teach golfers who want to know, the correct procedure, not to teach them how to manipulate various expressions as an excuse for not using what is acceptable under the rules. My purpose in becoming L3 certified was to raise my own knowledge level and to help others, particularly juniors, to learn the rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by g8r
The rounds of golf that I play for handicap and tournament purposes are played by the rules, the way the world's ruling body intends for the game to be played. To play otherwise is a simulation of the game of golf and one can call it whatever one wants. Some call it SCRAMBLE, some call it CHAPMAN, some call it PINEHURST, some call it FLOG. If anyone thinks I am "elitist" or "condescending" because I play by the rules, then I am elitist, condescending and damn proud of it and I'll wager that there are a lot more of us than you think, who want to learn the rules and play by them. What do you call golfers who don't play by the rules?
A golfer in doubt in stroke play says he is going to play a second ball, drops one and scores 3 with it and a 10 with the original. The rules official rules that his score is 10 because he did not declare with which ball he wished to score, when he decided to play a second ball. I am curious how a non elitist, non condescending golfer would try to manipulate 3-3b (ii) in their favour.
BTW: The answer to your hockey question is SHINNEY.
This isn't a "i don't like the OB stake rule so I'm going to ignore it" type of argument. Or "my ball is los tin the forest so I'll drop at point of entry". This isn't ignoring or waiving the rules, its interpreting the situation.
The point you are ignoring, and still have not addressed, is that he already declared that he was playing a provisional, hit it to the same location and said "i'll play another". You must be able to acknowledge that it is possible to follow the logic of it being declared a provisional?
While I can see your argument that he didn't decisively declare a provisional and therefore the 3rd ball is in play, I'm arguing the meaning of "another one" in this particular situation. I think a reasonable person would hear that statement after already declaring a provisional for the 2nd ball and would infer that the 3rd is also a provisional due to this announcement.
**oh, and I don't go around telling people that play pick up hockey that "its not real hockey because you don't follow all of the rules"**
BC - you do recognize I was suggesting that the two scenarios I proposed were the ones I consider rediculous, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by BC MIST
Because, you seem to imply that in each case, it's the obligation of me to call my competitor on. I believe in each case, the intent of the rule was complied with.
Are you suggesting that if you were playing in a competitive tournament, your FC hit his first ball into a forest, he turns to you and says exactly "I'm playing a provisional". He hits this second ball, and you're going to turn say to him "well, that ball is in play because you never said you were playing a provisional ball".
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but applying your own logic that you don't have the right to decide what rules to enforce and which ones not to enforce, your answer can only be that you'd make your FC play ball #2, because as you've pointed out, the rules are the rules and there's only one right answer.
I just looked up the exact wording on the RCGA website, and sure enough, "the player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball,....."
So it would indeed be not in accorcance with the rules of golf to say "I'm playing a provisional (omitting the word ball)", and you would be obligated to enforce this, otherwise face DQ yourself, right?
BTW - I enjoy learning the rules, and firmly believe I play by them as I understand them, and in fact, am a little offended that you suggest I use personal discretion to which rules I follow and which I don't. I do appreciate this forum to discuss rules and learn them, but as in the case I supplied above, there has to be a limit to where you draw the line of someone taking actions with the intention of meeting the rule.
There is an old expression that says "Just because it's logical, ( or reasonable) does not necessarily mean that it is right." While it is your interpretation, or IMO, misinterpretation, that "I'll play another," means provisional, the truth is that you are playing a ball. For a rules official to FAIRLY apply the rules, equitably to all competitors, you had better find your original. If an FC called the player and if a rules official considered ALL the facts, how could he rule, in fairness, that because the player IMPLIED that the second ball was really a provisional, it's OK. To avoid this situation, 27-2a specifically says that the player must state "that he intends to play a provisional."Quote:
Originally Posted by g8r
While this is a topic for another discussion, IMO, the rules of golf are not open to interpretation, only misinterpretation. The decisions clarify the application of the rules to particular situations. The more rules one learns, the fewer the interpretations. Would you agree that 99.9% of incorrect interpretations, favour the golfer. The reason is obvious.
As you have quoted above, 27-2A says that the player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball. The words were not within quotations and so the specific expression need not be used. But, it is crystal clear that the word provisional must be included and various other expressions like the ones in 27-2a/1 are unacceptable. If a golfer just says, "provisional," he has satisfied what it says in the rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by hackzaw
If you see an opponent breaking a rule and say nothing to him, it is your right to keep quiet and is permissible under the match play rule. If you discuss the infraction, at this point, you cannot agree to waive it. However, if you see a fellow competitor breaking a rule and say nothing, you are agreeing to waive the rules and this is against the rules. How would you feel if you came second in The Citizen Tournament by one stroke and then find out that the guy who won was seen grounding his club in a bunker by his FC, but who said nothing? When playing in tournaments, the inaction of not calling some one whom you see breaking a rule, IS offensive, and to everyone of the players in the tournament. If this is not you, there is no need to be offended. But, when something is on the line, it is part of our role as fellow competitors, to see to it that others do not gain an advantage by breaking a rule, whether intentional or not, and something must be said.
In a recent golf magazine there was a brief story of Sandy Lyle being PO'd at Nick Faldo for many years, because Lyle added tape to a club during a round, to eliminate the glare, and Faldo called him on it. Lyle broke a rule, but Faldo was the bad guy? I don't think so.
Actually, we are right because the rest of the rules community, and the golfing public at large says that we are, and that the rule is properly worded, whether you choose to interpret it that way or not. Just because you're speeding and you don't get caught, doesn't mean that you're not speeding.Quote:
Originally Posted by g8r
BTW - tapping the table to "check" in poker is an accepted form of play, not properly declaring a provisional in golf isn't.
No, because Rule 27-2 says that "The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball..."Quote:
Originally Posted by g8r
Nice try though. ;)
So what if I go to Russia for a round of golf, and don't know the word provisional in Russian? I know what my intent was, but if it is not clear for my FC, does it still make it a provisional?
Edit: Let's change that to a Russian comes here to play, because I guess the rules wouldn't be governed under the RCGA in Russia, now would they?
Pull out your rulebook and point to Rule 27-2a.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoolio
p.s. Being a different nationality doesn't excuse you from knowing the rules. ;)
I'm only playing devil's advocate to see exactly how precise one must state their intentions when declaring to play a provisional ball, and it's really not necessary for me to comment any further.... but, you mentioned about certain words not being in quotations, therefore the exact words are not really necessary; just that the word "provisional" must be there somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by BC MIST
Actually, if you go to the R&A Decisions 27-2a/1, it says, and I quote:
"The player's statement must specifically mention the words "provisional ball" or must make it clear that he is proceeding under Rule 27-2a..."
So, in fact, "provisional ball" is the exact expression quoted in the Decisions.
Of course, it's understood it will be a ball the player is playing.... but I often bring a provisional beverage with me in the event the beverage cart isn't on the course. So, if I said, "I'm gonna demolish my provisional", I could have been referring to my beverage. Again, simply playing devil's advocate, and considering this entire thread hangs on the exact language someone uses (or doesn't), as you've indicated, the rules are clear and state you must use "provisional ball" in the decisions.
However the point is loud and clear, back to the original thread that the player didn't state it was going to be a provisional, and therefore didn't abide by the rules.
(BTW - I called a guy in our club championship on a similar circumstance whereby he hit a provisional, but found his original in play, but liked his position of ball 2, and picked up the first...... DQ'ed - and he knew better)
and thats where we disagree. I think that the ruling provided is done without considering all the facts, but I understand the need to draw a line to ensure the fairness for all.Quote:
Originally Posted by BC MIST
The lesson here is to always say "I'm gonna hit a provisional ball" to avoid any unnecessary confrontation, and make sure that if I'm playing in a group I say it loud enough for everyone to hear it, cause I'm assuming that if you didn't hear if I'd get called on it too.
How do you address the "provisional ball" argument? Could you be called on declaring a "provisional" as hackzaw poitned out or are you allowed to imply a FC means a provisional ball?
I have heard the phrase "I'm gonna hit a pro-vee" which I often thought could be interpreted as the ubiquitous prov1 ball... but I was certain the player meant "provisional"
I've also heard another player in the group say "you might want to hit a provisional there..." & the player say "yes, I will"
Until now, I didn't realize these were infractions, but I guess ignorance of the rules is no defense, so now I've broken the rules too.