Point of Entry - Agreeing on the spot

This actually happened to me. Our foursome is playing a 2 man best ball. The hole is a dogleg right. My FC hits one left overtop a big tree lining the hazard line. The hazard line does open up behind this point to some degree.

I hit mine to the center of the fairway with 100 yards left. Great position. I look back and see my FC dropping about 75 yards further forward than where the ball originally crossed the line of hazard. I didn't say anything because he still had 190 yards to the pin, hitting his third.... a bogey would have been miraculous. Realistically, in my opinion, he should have had about 250, and not even enough yardage to see around the corner of the dogleg.

Sure enough, he hits an unbelievable shot, drains the putt for a par. I skull my shot, chip on, and two putt for a bogey, and he wins the hole.:bored:

From the tee, his tee shot clearly entered the hazard on the left side, and it was heading even more left. Because of the shape of the hole and where the hazard line goes, it's theoretically possible that a shot could cross the hazard once, then back into fair territory, and then back into the hazard. He never found his ball. I don't think his ball was back in fair territory following crossing the first hazard and then entering the hazard for a second time. Even if it did, it would be inpossible to say if that's what happened because we all lost sight of the ball after it flew the first tree. There would be no way to accurately determine if it did cross the hazard line a second time or not. Where should he have dropped?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer is where you actually see the ball cross the hazard line, but if you asked him, he'd claim it went fair again and then into the hazard again. It certainly ticked me off, especially since he won the hole with it.:grumpy:

Under the 2007 version of the rules you would have a case for declaring the ball lost as opposed to lost in a hazard since there was no "reasonable evidence" that it was lost in the hazard.

Either way, your FC should have confirmed the location of the drop with you. If you believe he dropped in a wrong location you would need to make a claim.

From 2008 it has to be "known or virtually certain"

Hmmmm.... interesting. Hadn't thought of the lost ball. So how do you go about determining if it was a lost ball or not?

The last thing we see is the ball heading over a hazard line over top a big tree. If he tries to say the ball was once fair, then I could have then said it's a lost ball since you didn't actually see it cross the second hazard line? And then, his only option is to retee?

And then what if he says all right, I'll just drop where it originally went in the hazard. Can you say, sorry, you said the ball was in fair territory further up, therefore the original hazard now has no bearing on anything - lost ball.

I guess I'm saying, he can't have it both ways, right. If he feels it was in fair territory beyond the first hazard, then it's a lost ball - retee - no other options, including not dropping at the original point of entry.

Let's say he was going to simply drop at the first point of entry... if I was a jerk, could I say, actually, I think it flew into fair territory, therefore it's a lost ball - back to the tee?

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Originally Posted by hackzaw

Hmmmm.... interesting. Hadn't thought of the lost ball. So how do you go about determining if it was a lost ball or not?

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This is where the wording of the rule change that AAA mentioned comes in. Previously you needed "evidence". Now you just need to be "certain". A subtle but important difference.

The situations you describe all could come in to play, which is why you would normally discuss with the FC and come to an agreement on how to proceed. If you can't agree, he would play where he thought he should and you would file a claim.

I am saying file a claim because I assume it was match play. If it was stroke play he should play two balls and sort out which one to use afterwards.

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Originally Posted by hackzaw

Hmmmm.... interesting. Hadn't thought of the lost ball. So how do you go about determining if it was a lost ball or not?

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jv has given you a pretty good answer. The problem with the sort of situation you describe is that you have to there to make a real judgement. It is very difficult to answer in a forun like this.

But I would add that 'I think' is not nearly enough to satisfy the 'know or be virtually certain' requirement.

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Originally Posted by AAA

jv has given you a pretty good answer. The problem with the sort of situation you describe is that you have to there to make a real judgement. It is very difficult to answer in a forun like this.

But I would add that 'I think' is not nearly enough to satisfy the 'know or be virtually certain' requirement.

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If there was any discussion by your opponent ("If he tries to say the ball was once fair" ) that the ball MAY or COULD be found outside the hazard, the ball is LOST. If he walked briskly to a point on the margin and said, "The ball crossed here," it is in the hazard. Where there is doubt, stroke and distance.

I know it's hard to describe the layout of the hole, which is necessary to make the discussion here worthwhile.

Basically, it comes down to this. The ball crossed the first hazard margin. That we're certain of. What we can't be certain of is, did the ball then fly through fair territory, and cross the hazard margin a second time. It's impossible from our vantage to say that it crossed the margin a second time. However, my FC took his drop up where "he thought" the ball might have crossed the second margin.

I never thought the ball would have had a chance to cross the second margin in the first place. BUT, even if the line dictated that the ball MIGHT have crossed the margin a second time, there would be no way to be certain, and for sure lacking evidence.

My FC never thought he might find the ball outside the hazard. I just think he grossly overestimated (without evidence no less), where the ball crossed the hazard.... and obviously to his advantage. He took relief at a point that gave him a shot at the green, rather than being further back and not having a shot.

We were just playing a casual game, and he's my buddy, so I probably wouldn't call him on it. But I still think he needs to know what to do if it happens again. After all, it did cost me beer:hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit: .

By the sounds of it under the current rules you didn't have "reasonable evidence" and under the new rules you weren't "virtually certain" so for me it's a reload and three off the tee. :rolleyes

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Originally Posted by gbower

By the sounds of it under the current rules you didn't have "reasonable evidence" and under the new rules you weren't "virtually certain" so for me it's a reload and three off the tee. :rolleyes

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For me, it's a drop where it crossed the first margin i.e. the one that's 250 yards out, not the one where it's 190 yards out. We definitely saw the ball fly into the first hazard. The debate is really, did it go into fair territory, and then cross the hazard for a second time? There's no way to be sure of that....

Of course I like to complicate things. What if you found your ball beyond the second hazard margin, and don't want to play it. Do you "presume" that if you draw a straight line back to the tee, you can reasonably pick the point of entry where it LAST crossed the hazard? In this circumstance, you really still don't know if the ball ever actually crossed the hazard a second time, because it could have bounced off a tree and found it's final resting place further up, but never was in fair territory, crossing the margin a second time.

In general unless you actually see something happen, you should err on the conservative side. This is the crux of the change of wording on the lost ball rule.

Here's a good example. In the Citizen on of my FCs hit a ball that I very clearly saw cross the hazard (lateral), land, and then bounce back. When we got to the ball it had rolled back across the hazard. We had a short discussion where I told him what I saw, we determined the point of entry and proceeded.

If I hadn't seen the ball land he would have had to play from the other side of the hazard.

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Originally Posted by hackzaw

What if you found your ball beyond the second hazard margin, and don't want to play it.

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If you mean you ball was not in the (a) water hazard, it doesn't matter how many times it crosses margins. It's on the regular course and in play.

Hack if I was officiating and you described the situation as you have I would definitely have you reloading. If you think it may have cleared both hazards you therefore are not certain that it went in and it may be lost. As BC mentioned about the ball might be outside of the hazard then there is doubt.

This brings home that one must immediately discuss any point of order regarding the rules during a match and discuss it with the FC. If he gets all upset, too bad, rules are there to protect everybody, I speak from experience.