I've used the handicapping software on this site the last few years but was wondering what other people use who don't play private courses. I'm interested in playing in the Citizen Am so i was thinking of using the rcga?
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I've used the handicapping software on this site the last few years but was wondering what other people use who don't play private courses. I'm interested in playing in the Citizen Am so i was thinking of using the rcga?
I'm a GAO public player which gets you an RCGA handicap. I went with the GAO because when I first enrolled Golf Quebec didn't have one and they have some stupid policies so I'm boycotting them.
Signing up with GAO currently!
They imposed a restriction on the number of players required to form a club which essentially froze out a couple of places that wanted membership but weren't allowed as an example. Dan could give more details since it impacted Manderley.
There was another one that I can't remember right now.
I may have to join GAO.
Golf Quebec governs RCGA membership for clubs in this region and runs events such as intersectionals.
A golf course needs 40 members minimum and we didn't have that many at Manderley, so we lost our status. No more official handicapping. No more intersectionals. No more club events. Membership is now a "season's pass".
It also impacted the frequent player program we wanted to have here. We signed up 30 people for the RM Public Player Program to start, and submitted our application and cheque. The advertised minimum for a "club without a course" was 15. They heard we had 500 members in the RM discount golf club at the time, so they demanded that we pay for 500 memberships in Golf Quebec. We closed the program.
IMHO they don't seem to be genuinely focussed on growing the game of golf.
Manderley doesn't even have 40 members. I am shocked.
How many members does it have?
Not sure for this year, but that's not really the point.
true, not really the point.
I sympathise Dan, I think EG had the same debacle with them. That's why we're playing our intersectionals in Kingston...
However, I'm curious if a "club within a club" would've worked for this, i.e. create an "RM Competitive Club" and have those 15 member signup for it, as well as RM. I wonder what GQ would say to that...
Since we are on the subject, is there anything preventing the Manderley or Ottawa Golf from joining the GAO?
If there is nothing in the RCGA bylaws preventing it I would say go for it.
It's not something RM is looking at now. RM doesn't run events so providing official handicapping isn't really bringing anything of value to our members. They can get it directly through the RCGA's public players programs for the same price.
Really? They thought it was perfectly reasonable. I had to ask her to rephrase it a few times to be sure I was hearing what I thought I was hearing. Turns out she was serious.
Does Clublink have handicapping system for their members? I called their infoline once and the operator was clueless.
No you don't! If the King makes a law that says nobody can wear the crown, he is still allowed to. :)
Cool. I'll have to keep that in mind :bigcheek
It would be interesting to see if the GAO would permit your RM Public Player Program group to join their organization. Common sense says that the criteria for acceptance should be the same from province to province.
Not trying to be argumentative, only trying to understand. What is the difference in principle between our club (with property) of 300 members having to pay 300 X annual fee to the RCGA, and RM, (without property) with 500 members having to pay only 30 X annual fee?
I do find it strange that the RCGA requires a "club" to have a minimum of 10 members, but allows the provincial organizations to set their own minimum.
Based on my several discussions with the RCGA folks on this subject, here is my take on their rationale.
1. They believe that the course rating/handicap system is benefit that they provide for their members.
2. If a club has members, then the course can/will get an official rating.
3. Since all members of the club would in theory benefit from the rating, all club members should have to pay the RCGA membership fee.
My position is that the RCGA is that they should rate ALL courses in Canada for free. Then they can offer official handicapping and other services to golfers who are willing to pay the membership fee.
The 500 members didn't buy into our Public Player program. 30 did. Just because RM runs both programs does not make them the same program. To not understand that is just being obtuse. I didn't appreciate being treated like I was trying to cheat them out of member's dues. They saw dollar signs and got greedy, so they got nothing from us. How does that make sense? We may have had 500 members for them in time. Now we'll never know.
It was added administration work for us with no profit. We were willing to do that as a service to our customers who wanted it, to support the golfers, encourage the use of the handicapping system and help with golfer education. THAT is supporting the game IMHO.
Shall we discuss how the RCGA added a clause to the licensing agreement for certified handicapping software providers to report to the RCGA on members rolls for participating clubs? Yup. They wanted us to rat on the clubs so they could bill them for members they feel the clubs are under-reporting. You will notice our handicapping system is no longer certified by the RCGA.
I was certified as a Rules Official but after all of this I couldn't justify volunteering my time to support such an organization. They are all take and no give.
Is their mandate to support the game or to make as much money as possible by strong arming clubs and taking advantage of volunteer enthusiasts?
I can understand your frustration. They just don't appear to get it. They are letting real opportunities to grow the game slip through their fingers by clinging to a business model whose utility has passed. At the same time they've managed to annoy long time supporters. This is a sad state of affairs.
I agree with mpare.
I just didn't know things were that bad at the RCGA.
While I stand to be corrected, it is my understanding that:
(a) the two main sources of income for the RCGA are the Canadian Open, the 8 or so dollars of the $25 that members of clubs pay for their RCGA fee, and a portion of the fee that the public players pay. Without the Open, the national and provincial organizations would probably cease to exist.
(b) the RCGA owns the course rating and handicap systems, trains member volunteers at the expense of both the volunteers and the provincial organization and rates courses at the expense of the provincial organizations.
Why then:
1. should clubs who choose NOT to be part of the RCGA and pay NOTHING to the RCGA, receive a course rating for FREE?
2. should golfers, who pay NOTHING to the RCGA, get a handicap for FREE?
If the only golfers to pay a membership were those who desired a handicap, (my estimate is 5% to 10%) and if the provincial share of the $25 is approximately $17, would there be sufficient funds to run all the activities that Golf Quebec, for example, does?
As a public player, what benefits, apart from having an official handicap, do you feel you should get?
I agree with all of you that there has to be a better way encouraging PP's to become part of the system for the good of and growth of the game, and understand that there have been discussions regarding this at the provincial level, but don't know the reasons why more than what has already been done, has not.
I'd have to check the annual reports, but I'm pretty sure the RCGA derives the lion's share of it's income from the Canadian Open. They also have a bunch of other sponsorship deals that probably help as well.
So, why should the rating be free?
There are two ways to look at this. If the RCGA can create a program that members feel they benefit from, people will pay for it. It's as simple as that.
If the RCGA chooses to act autocratically, then they will not meet their mandate to grow the game.
I maintain that the RCGA head office is still filled with people from the old boys club. They do not understand that if they provide a service that golfers value they will actually INCREASE their membership. Instead, they stick with the old model of needing to belong to a club to be a member.
The fact that the RCGA cannot clearly articulate the value of being a member says volumes.
BCMIST, I am all ears if you want to educate me.
I am an uninformed Public Player that can't afford a membership anywhere.
I don't know much of anything about the GAO or the RCGA, or the history of either organization.
Turns out this is not the case based on a quick read of the 2010 annual report.Quote:
I'd have to check the annual reports, but I'm pretty sure the RCGA derives the lion's share of it's income from the Canadian Open. They also have a bunch of other sponsorship deals that probably help as well.
There is however some interesting stuff in there.
I am reading it now. :-)
The part that immediately jumped out to me is that the membership drive that the RCGA started in 2010 was only successful in keeping membership levels flat. They spent $1M on this effort.
This was actually better than previous years where membership had declined.
Clearly, something is wrong when they spend $1M and can only add enough members to offset their losses for a current year.
I certainly have more questions than answers. My only involvement in the RCGA/GQ/OVGA is 50 years of tournament participation and more recently, as a rules official in GQ and OVGA events. Perhaps in the next few months I will get some explanations for both others' and my questions regarding the issue.
Would a significant reason be that many golfers are finding club membership to be too expensive for the number of games played? The availability of organizations like Corporate Golf, Executive Golf, Reservation Masters and the like, are much more affordable and reasonable for golfers who play, say 40 games or less per season.
I have often wondered why the golf course owners didn't form their own, similar organization, years ago, so that the membership fees stayed within the member clubs.
As an aside, if you were a public player for Golf Quebec, would you feel that participation in GQ and OVGA tournaments should be one of the membership benefits?
It clearly is an issue.
I joined the RCGA as a public player right from day one of playing golf 2 years ago. However, my reasons were selfish really. I wanted an official handicap simply because many courses in the UK where my mates play will not let any guest play unless they have an OFFICIAL handicap.
I have learnt a little more about the RCGA and what they do over the last couple of years and in all honesty, what they do for me (other than providing an official handicap) is minimal. However, I don't have any problem paying my dues because they do a lot for the game at other levels.
The national teams, the youth and junior teams and the junior programs...I don't really have a problem dropping $30 or so a year to support that...I do honestly believe its good for Canadian golf.
However..if only 5% or so or players keep an official handicap and the majority of golfers in Canada do not belong to private clubs I really don't know what the RCGA can do to raise membership. The vast majority of golfers play social golf at public courses and dont keep a handicap...they are only interested in their own pastime not the health of Canadian golf. The more serious golfers join clubs or the RCGA as a public player. If the rating system and handicapping was provided for free what "stick" would the RCGA have...why would anyone join?
I do think it was very short sighted of them to turn away Kilroys members though...30 members (with potential for growth) is infinitly better than zero members
I'm pretty sure those are part of the reason. And the current RCGA policy, as shown by Dan's example, DISCOURAGES those players from becoming RCGA members.
I might. I know that the GAO has a specific public player tournament and allows the public players into their other tournaments. Not sure about Golf Quebec.Quote:
As an aside, if you were a public player for Golf Quebec, would you feel that participation in GQ and OVGA tournaments should be one of the membership benefits?
The course ratings is a free service.
The handicapping system, and any benefits that it carries with it are available to members only.
To use the cliche, the RCGA simply cannot think outside the box. They are stuck in their ways and without a significant change are going to be in serious trouble.
They have a bunch of money in the bank from the sale Glen Abbey to Clublink that will keep them alive for a while, but that won't last forever.
Golf courses have to be RCGA members to have their course rated i believe.
I don't know what the RCGA can do to encourage average members to join..except appeal to their alturistic nature in supporting Canadaina Golf.
If they were a bit more imaginative thay could provide services to members at discounted rates...Tournament entry fees, Spectator entry fees at Canadian Open etc, insurance and travel perks, even discounted purchasing at golf retailers etc....all these things they could negotiate a great deal for with a large membership.
I think these sorts of "real" benefits might encourage more to join