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Hate? Crap? Your words dude, not mine! You guys sure do make things up!!! And that vitriol was "well said"??? Yikes!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by throttle
I understand you guys *desperately* want to believe they've come up with some higher math to make gold out of dirt...but this device doesn't really measure all that much. There is no rational reason to think it will outperform other devices that are similarly "guessing" at the parameters.
Faulty not trying to start a pissing match and yes if this thing does not work I will be the first one to call it a piece of junk so no worries. Just awaiting Cory's testing results before I officially think its a good or bad device. Based off what I saw in his video comparing the ES12 to a GC2 with HMT this device may have a place in the market or it may not. Time will tell...
The big thing to understand here is that if the unit has to have the club entered to to give you the LA, it may just be a set degree that will not change for that club. And if you hit the club like you should, yes then the LA degree may be accurate to a couple degrees. But if you punch that same iron and de loft the face and get 1/4 of the LA on the real shot, the question is will that device give you a lower LA readout or will it still show the one that was pre set?
If it can some how calculate that punch and come up with a number that was a lot lower than a perfect hit ball then it may be worth it. I would think it would not be able to do this but we will see when tested.
You need to select the horizontal direction (straight, left or right) and club. Selecting th horizontal seems silly to me. You can change the different club lofts. My guesse is that they will adjust the ball launch angle based on the ball speed and smash factor. Total spin will be based on ball speed and club selected. Don't expect 100% accuracy. It may be acceptable for some folks. I highly doubt it will get integrated with P3Pro or Optishot.
I can't imagine this thing is accurate unless you hit like a robot. Even if you enter all the club data, every person delivers the club at impact with varying degrees of dynamic loft. This alone causes issues. I guess if a robot swung each club at its intended loft and hit the sweet spot each time, you could do something like this.
I tested this unit at the Merchandise show while the GC2 sitting directly next to it was still working and the comparative numbers were almost identical. I actually felt bad for the folks at the GC2 booth which was only 50 yards away having their multi-thousand dollar launch monitor compared to the show special $350 unit actually show similar results. I ordered one at the show and it is scheduled to be delivered the 1st week in March, I will report back.
How did it do on mis hits (two words to avoid censor)?Quote:
Originally Posted by clubchampx9
Sorry I didn't pay much attention to those shots but both units showed a "bad" shotQuote:
Originally Posted by northgolf
For the recreational golfer wanting to see his actual yardages and gaps between clubs this is ideal. I would not use it indoors so much as outdoors where I can see my ball flight and know how well I hit each shot. I just got the ES12 on Valentine's day and I am anxious to use it during my practice sessions. I also downloaded the free app for android to use with it, it practice session history and you can even delete mi****s to get an better estimate of good shots with each club.
That's the big question, does it read punch, flop shots and mis hits well?
Is there any courses to play and does it have online play ?
No...absolutely not. My livelihood depends on this sort of thing - so much like Cory I was at the show to test a few things. I didn't take videos because I'm not a reseller - but I use this technology professional and make my living with it.
I did the same exact test - the two units are completely different.
GC2 measures the spin. Its very good so long as the unit is orthogonal.
ES14 uses a calculation for spin.
GC2 measures launch angle.
ES14 uses a calculation for launch angle.
Hit a punch shot:
The GC2 measures a low shot with low spin.
The ES14 measures a high shot that was poorly struck.
Two pros for the ES14:
GC2 can not calculate smash factor without HMT - ES14 can.
ES14 is $500. GC2 is $6750.
ES14 is something I am planning to carry as an item to sell to my customers - I plan to do this once they stop their 'distributors' from selling the item at wholesale cost on ebay (not really happening with the ES14, but was constantly happening with ES12).
GC2 is something I am using for fittings and teaching golf. I can even rent it to someone to use to practice in one of my hitting bays and easily get $30 per hour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clubchampx9
Yes, the ES14 is nothing like the GC2. It only measures 2 things: club head speed and ball speed. Everything else is calculated.
Actually, ball speed is the only thing that is used to generate a distance estimate out of those 2, since club head speed has nothing to do with ball flight. So knowing that you need ball speed, launch angle, spin and spin axis for a true genuine ball flight....1 out of 4 is bad.
I don't think anyone with a GC2 would ever feel bad that they didn't wait to buy an ES14.
GB:
Thats not 100% accurate. The ES14 actually uses the 'smash factor' to guess at the launch angle - because on a solidly struck ball a higher launch angle would tend to have a lower smash factor (due to a higher lofted club's more glancing ball strike).
I think the ES14 is the most basic ball measuring device (ball speed only) paired with the most basic club measuring device (clubhead speed only).
A device that measures clubhead speed, ball speed and launch angle can actually even give total spin (calculated) based on the fact that on a solidly struck shot ball clubhead speed is transferred into ball speed + spin. Its still calculated (not measured) - but its a level above what the ES14 presently does (but still not what the GC2 does). I think this is sort of what Zelocity was attempting - but its not the same as measuring the spin (less accurate) and there is no way to know the spin axis.
Thanks Hoboken, I didn't know it makes a guess at the launch angle based on the smash factor.
I could see that providing slightly more accurate carry distances for most solidly struck shots. Mis hits will throw that off though. But better than not having that extra algorithm I suppose.
In the end, it's still known that spin/axis measurement is the "holy grail", but apparently the most diffucult/expensive to obtain.
I hope someone can provide like 10-20 shot comparison with a GC2 or About Golf or similar when they receive it. Really test it out. And provide the shot by shot results.
Would a shot higher on the club face produce a slower ball speed, and lower on the club face produce a faster speed?
Hey All,
Just recently got an update on my pre-order for the ES14 that due to the recent severe weather in the Atlanta area (which has greatly impacted their production schedule) they are now planning to start the shipping process the first week in March. They said that they have a lot of pre-orders so my order may take a little bit longer depending on where I am in the line.
I will be out on fundraisers and installs for most of March, so probably won't be able to do much testing in March - since the ES14 is so portable, I may take it to the fundraisers to see how it reacts with various levels of golfers :) (so long as it doesn't get in the way and doesn't interfere with the GC2 readings)
Happy Golfing,
Cory
No, not really. And you should know when working as a clubfitter. Try to compare a driver with a AoA +5 and dynamic loft of 16 with a smash of 1.48. That will give you a Launch around 14.35Quote:
Originally Posted by hobokengolf
Now a iron 7 with AoA -5 and dynamic 20, smash 1.38,
According to you this iron will fly higher but it's not. It's launch is 13.75degree.
So as you can see AoA is key here in understanding (calculating launch angle) and AoA is one of the most difficult values to measure after spin axis.
No, not really. Again you need AoA and then the spin value data is still pure guess work and will not compensate for any gear effect. The error for that calculated spin value even without gear effect will still be around 25%Quote:
Originally Posted by hobokengolf
No, not reallyQuote:
Originally Posted by hobokengolf
if those shots are the same distance from the sweetspot the lower on the face shot will produce a higher speed, more spin and lower launch angle then the high on the face.Quote:
Originally Posted by golfun
So what do you think would happen if the golfer de-lofted the club 10 degrees at impact?
Guessing it would produce a lower, faster flight unless the other mechanics of the swing changed it.
most of the time the golfer will also produce 10 degrees more Angle of Attack. Spinloft, spin, speed ( and smash) all stay the same, launch will be 10D lower.Quote:
Originally Posted by golfun
So your saying that everything will stay the say except the LA, which will be lower. That's where the unit wouldn't be able to detect the LA, because the BS and CS haven't changed. Sound right?
it will not be able to guesstimate the launch angle anywhere near the real value. However as most of the golfers have no idea what the difference between a 10Degree or 15Degree launch angle looks like this machine will sell like crazy until enough negative reports are released. But even then I would not hold my breath until that happens, as even up to this moment people (including fitters) are also still using the zelocity purelauch and even pay usd 100,- every year for the software license to be renewed ...it really makes me cry\sad\sick..:footinmouQuote:
Originally Posted by golfun
http://wishongolf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12924
Thanks Frans. I understand more what your saying. I realllly de-loft my irons at impact. So who knows. I can't wait to see a comparison chart to a GC2 or similar and how off the numbers are/not.
Just received my email conformation that they will ship me my unit this Friday. Anyone else who pre-ordered get the same notice?
I saw on their twitter that they already started to order, and they are putting up an order page tomorrow for it.
Nothing yet here :(Quote:
Originally Posted by throttle
Heard people received their unit already....
Yup, just got mine, but will be away for a bit - hope to check it out late next week.
Can't wait to see side by side comparison data on this!!!
I received mine today but the app is still not up in the Apple App Store. Were you able to activate your unit without an App and if so, let me know how you did it. I tried to use it without the app but nothing registered.
Seems to me that these real-world comparisons are worthless if they are using scratch golfers because their perfect his mimic the es14 parameters. What would be useful is a bunch of 25 handicappers hitting errant shots.
I'm a 14 handicap. We have a flight scope at our club. Will try to see the stats if the es14 vs the flight scope.Quote:
Originally Posted by CAL7
We have a high end flight scope with the metallic balls. Will try to compare the es14 to the stats from the flight scope.
Hi
see you guys are starting to get your ES 14. Will they be selling at Golf town? ES12 is being sold there. Contacted Ernest Sports and not sure. Said I could order from them with the $100 off discount code. Good deal but with shipping ,taxes and duty might be better to wait.
Thanks
Newman
I received mine last Friday. Having issues so far, it only registers about one in ten shots. When it does register a shot the data seems off.
And yes I used the ruler the thing came with. Anyone else who got theirs having similar issues. I hope I just have a lemon and can get it replaced...
I tried my both at an outdoor range & indoor range vs a flight scope. I would say 3 out of 4 shots were captured. Certainly not good enough so far. However, compared to the flight scope, the average ball speed difference was 3 mph and the average distance difference was 10 yards. However, more concerning is the spin rate with a 6 iron was probably off by 1000-2000 rpm.
Launch Angle?
Nope. Overall very good for the price. Measures club head speed and ball accurately. Next best thing is probably the 2500 flight scope but that doesn't even measure spin.