provisional played when ball "might" be lost OR in a hazard

this gets confusing but I think I know what's right.

You hit ball, there is a hazard, you aren't sure if it's in, or maybe you didn't know it was staked, you declare and hit provisional.

Get up there and can't find ball anywhere. I see two results

1) if you can't be virtually certain ball is in hazard, declare it lost and play provisonal
2) if you can deem the ball lost in hazard, take appropriate drop and play on

the question is deeming the ball lost or in the hazard. Not finding the ball does not mean its in the hazard, although in the case where it's wide open and mowed every where else it might be what tips the scales to be "virtually certain". If it flew into what you later find out to be a marked hazard area, I suppose it could have always bounced out somehow, but if there's no ball anywhere I'd call this in the hazard. We can only do our best right?

I agree as this happened to me just recently in a tournament. Hit a ball over some trees with a draw that was heading a bit too much to the left of the fairway. Hit a provisional just in case. Got past the trees to find that there was a water hazard there, and my provisional, which had a very similar line but more towards the fairway was right beside the hazard.

Based on the ball flight my playing partners told the rules official that there wasn't a chance it went so far left that it went OB, so it was virtually certain it was in the water hazard since it was nowhere to be found and couldn't locate it within the hazard either. I took a drop from the water hazard and continued the hole.

So that was you yesterday that I gave relief to. :-)

Thanks! Top notch officiating ;)

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Originally Posted by gbower

So that was you yesterday that I gave relief to. :-)

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I'll see you at the Shootout. Good luck!!!!

So even if you hit a provisional, you still have the option ,once you get up to the area/path your first ball travelled to, and find out it is virtually certain to be in the hazard, you can drop accordingly from the stakes and pick up the provisional even if you don't find it but you know it is in there?

Wow that is a long question that I think makes sense...

In this situation the hazard was not visible from the tee and none of them knew it was there. The rough was not high and a ball would have been easily visible if that's where it had landed. Judging from where the provisional ball (that was played for a ball lost or out of bounds) had carried to the only place that his ball could have been was in the hazard. If it was known that the hazard was there and the provisional ball was hit then he would have had to find the first ball or the provisional would have been the ball in play. It has to be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard, you can't just think it's in the hazard. After Denis went through that hole we had an official in the area as it was a bit of a trouble hole.

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Originally Posted by DenisO

I agree as this happened to me just recently in a tournament. Hit a ball over some trees with a draw that was heading a bit too much to the left of the fairway. Hit a provisional just in case. Got past the trees to find that there was a water hazard there, and my provisional, which had a very similar line but more towards the fairway was right beside the hazard.

Based on the ball flight my playing partners told the rules official that there wasn't a chance it went so far left that it went OB, so it was virtually certain it was in the water hazard since it was nowhere to be found and couldn't locate it within the hazard either. I took a drop from the water hazard and continued the hole.

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Wait a second...

..... You went off the fairway?

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Originally Posted by Wknd_Warrior

1) if you can't be virtually certain ball is in hazard, declare it lost and play provisonal
2) if you can deem the ball lost in hazard, take appropriate drop and play on

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In both cases the red words are wrong and also redundant. You can neither declare nor deem your ball lost.
However both the statements are correct without the red words.

1) if you can't be virtually certain ball is in hazard, play provisonal
2) if it is known or virtually certain (KVC) the ball lost in hazard, take appropriate drop and play on

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Originally Posted by gbower

In this situation the hazard was not visible from the tee and none of them knew it was there. The rough was not high and a ball would have been easily visible if that's where it had landed. Judging from where the provisional ball (that was played for a ball lost or out of bounds) had carried to the only place that his ball could have been was in the hazard. If it was known that the hazard was there and the provisional ball was hit then he would have had to find the first ball or the provisional would have been the ball in play. It has to be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard, you can't just think it's in the hazard. After Denis went through that hole we had an official in the area as it was a bit of a trouble hole.

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Okay i think I'm clear then.

1) if you hit the ball and you see it enter the hazard and know the entry point, you can drop at point of entry (red stake) (even if you don't find it) --- no need to hit provisional --

unless -

2) if you play a provisional because it went in the hazard

a) you don't find the first so then the provisional is in play or

b) you find it in the hazard - prov is no longer in play and can play from the hazard or drop at the staked line


-- so many situations for the rules = not enough time --

k, I was good untill the part about having to not know the hazard is there.

" If it was known that the hazard was there and the provisional ball was hit then he would have had to find the first ball or the provisional would have been the ball in play"

This implies if you know a hazard is there, but aren't sure if you are lost or in the hazard, you can't hit a provisional without it becoming the ball in play unless you actually find the first in the hazard. Virtually certain doesn't matter anymore because you knew the hazard was there from the tee?

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Originally Posted by AAA

In both cases the red words are wrong and also redundant. You can neither declare nor deem your ball lost.
However both the statements are correct without the red words.

1) if you can't be virtually certain ball is in hazard, play provisonal
2) if it is known or virtually certain (KVC) the ball lost in hazard, take appropriate drop and play on

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Excellent, your edit makes everything a lot clearer!

Thanks

some quotes I found on web

27-2a/2 Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard
Q. A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?
A. The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of "Provisional Ball," is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

In the situation with Denis none of the players knew the hazard was there or could even see it from the tee and where the ball went they would have easily found it but as there was a hazard that was the only place it could have been. I judged this on what the fellow competitors had said and from the distance of the provisional which was hit about the same distance as the original. A provisional ball is played for a ball that is possibly lost or out of bounds. When the provisional was hit they thought it could have been lost in the rough but the area near the hazard was rough but the grass was very short and he would have easily found it. We have a hole on my home course that has a small pond that is not visible from the tee and if a ball is hit over the trees towards that pond I will always hit a provisional for a possible lost ball but if I find it in the pond I can then play under the water hazard rule and abandon the provisional but if I don't find it the provisional is in play.

that's what concerns me, you have to make the decision on the tee if it's virtually certain it's in the hazard. Not knowing it's there isn't really any different, than knowing it's there but not being able to see it.

IMO the answer I think lies not in whether you know the hazard is there, but wether there is a chance the ball is lost. If you have to play a provisionl to walk up and determine that, even having played the course before, I think this is fine, or should be abyhow.

If you hit the provisional it is for a possible lost ball or one that could be out of bounds and like I said earlier you must now find the ball when you know there is a hazard in the area and a possibility the ball could be lost outside the hazard due to long rough or trees that could have deflected the ball.

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Originally Posted by Wknd_Warrior

that's what concerns me, you have to make the decision on the tee if it's virtually certain it's in the hazard. Not knowing it's there isn't really any different, than knowing it's there but not being able to see it.

IMO the answer I think lies not in whether you know the hazard is there, but wether there is a chance the ball is lost. If you have to play a provisionl to walk up and determine that, even having played the course before, I think this is fine, or should be abyhow.

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The way I understand provisionals is that they are specifically for situations where you do not know whether the ball is in bounds, out of bounds, or in a hazard. Hitting a provisional allows you to continue on with the hole, and avoid the embarassing situation of walking back to the tee if a ball is indeed OB. If it turns out the ball is in play, or in a hazard, you play the original ball, and pickup the provisional. You're covered either way.

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Originally Posted by jonf

The way I understand provisionals is that they are specifically for situations where you do not know whether the ball is in bounds, out of bounds, or in a hazard. Hitting a provisional allows you to continue on with the hole, and avoid the embarassing situation of walking back to the tee if a ball is indeed OB. If it turns out the ball is in play, or in a hazard, you play the original ball, and pickup the provisional. You're covered either way.

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The highlighted statement above isn't quite correct. You may play a provisional ball for a ball that may be out of bounds or may be lost outside a water hazard.
If it is known that a ball is in a water hazard, a provisional is not permitted; in fact, if you know the original is in a water hazard and you play a "provisional", the second ball is your ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance, and your original ball is lost (by definition) and must not be played even if found.

This must be the most discussed rule around. Was debating this issue regarding a hole the other day. Hole is par 5 with a pond on th e right side of the green. If "going for" the green in 2, the pond is NOT visible, as there is a swale that obscures the pond and most the putting surface. The pond is deep, and usually not that clear. The pond is surrounded by rough. The debate was basically, "Can one ever actually take a drop at the hazard?". No one, unless on a different hole or a FC that walks far ahead of the group, would be able to actually see the ball enter the water. It is virtually impossible, barring a mask and fins, to find you ball in said pond. Thus, are you stuck playing a provisional every time, and using it if the ball is not found? Obviously a design issue, but is there any way to proceed under water hazard drop rule in this case?

PS - Ya, I know the pond is there.

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Originally Posted by Shreen

This must be the most discussed rule around. Was debating this issue regarding a hole the other day. Hole is par 5 with a pond on th e right side of the green. If "going for" the green in 2, the pond is NOT visible, as there is a swale that obscures the pond and most the putting surface. The pond is deep, and usually not that clear. The pond is surrounded by rough. The debate was basically, "Can one ever actually take a drop at the hazard?". No one, unless on a different hole or a FC that walks far ahead of the group, would be able to actually see the ball enter the water. It is virtually impossible, barring a mask and fins, to find you ball in said pond. Thus, are you stuck playing a provisional every time, and using it if the ball is not found? Obviously a design issue, but is there any way to proceed under water hazard drop rule in this case?

PS - Ya, I know the pond is there.

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At the time you play the ball you don't know the outcome so you may play a provisional.
Once you get there you now have the opportunity to reconsider the situation. From your description it sounds unlikely that you would know or be virtually certain that the ball was in the WH.
Therefore you have no option but to play the provisional, providing you can find it of course ;)

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Originally Posted by AAA

Therefore you have no option but to play the provisional, providing you can find it of course ;)

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LOL. Yes there is always THAT possibility.