Course Management/Game Management

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05-20-2004 12:05 AM
broken27

Course Management/Game Management

I am curious. I've noticed a lot of people in here who love to give advice on gameplay, technique, zen etc...

I'm the typical 21 handicapper who likes to blast balls off the tee, but lacks the ability to do a good job of it regularly.

I've been told in the past that playing an iron 150 yards forward and into the fairway is better than hitting a driver 250 yards into the rough. I've been "coached" by players of similar calibre on the finer points of course management.

My question is of a fairly complex nature:

"When selecting a club, what are the first three keys to judge by?"

Is it always going to be a comfort thing? Will I be deciding this based on my "average stroke"? Where does the indication of poor technique happen? Should my 7-iron be a no brainer on a 145 yard par 3? Maybe someone can enlighten me on where the "random" elements of golf stop making decisions for me...

Thanks.
Dan
05-20-2004 12:10 AM
The Shtick

Only thing I can think of right now is "Grip It, Rip it, and Sip it". Works for me! :lol2
05-20-2004 12:21 AM
broken27

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shtick

Only thing I can think of right now is "Grip It, Rip it, and Sip it". Works for me! :lol2

"sip it" I can do. :cheers
05-20-2004 12:45 AM
Andru

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken27

I am curious. I've noticed a lot of people in here who love to give advice on gameplay, technique, zen etc...

I'm the typical 21 handicapper who likes to blast balls off the tee, but lacks the ability to do a good job of it regularly.

I've been told in the past that playing an iron 150 yards forward and into the fairway is better than hitting a driver 250 yards into the rough. I've been "coached" by players of similar calibre on the finer points of course management.

My question is of a fairly complex nature:

"When selecting a club, what are the first three keys to judge by?"

Is it always going to be a comfort thing? Will I be deciding this based on my "average stroke"? Where does the indication of poor technique happen? Should my 7-iron be a no brainer on a 145 yard par 3? Maybe someone can enlighten me on where the "random" elements of golf stop making decisions for me...

Thanks.
Dan

This is a great topic. I struggle with this all the time. Pulling bad clubs just not thinking. Especially on the tougher courses in the area. There was another thread covering this. Find the spot you want to land the ball and pick the club that will get you there. Taking in to account the slope of the green , fairway.

I'll give you a great example. I played the marshes today by myself SO I played two balls. The 14th on the marshes. par 5 short 501. I have two balls in the fairway. one is 230 to the pin the other 239. So I lay up the 239 ball to 101 and I take a crack at the green with the 230 ball miss right made bogey.

To the ball I layed up. As I'm looking at the green I notice two things everything left or short of the pin funnels towards the hole. So instead of aiming at the flag, I aimed anywhere left. It hits the rough and rolls to 4 feet. No kidding I played the rest of the round and I didn't think about anything except the golf course and where I wanted to land the ball. I didn't always execute, but I wasn't caught off guard when I hit a poor shot either. My misses weren't that bad.

I learned two things today. 1) Take a look at a par three from both sides of the tee deck 2) Don't try to hit a draw when the ball is below your feet. ( splash on number 2 !)

Cheers
05-20-2004 02:28 AM
Deep Woods

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken27

"When selecting a club, what are the first three keys to judge by?"

I'm not one for giving advice today (what a terrible round, but a gorgeous day), but here are some good tips...

1) Why drive a 300 yard hole...sure, if you want to get there in ONE, and that is your ULTIMATE goal, go for it, have some fun, but if you want to score low, there is no benefit to driving a short hole. If its a 450 yard par 4, I think the driver is necessary.

2) How narrow is that landing area and how deep is the rough around it? Again, if you aren't hitting the driver accurately (which WAS my case today), why bother...take out a 3/5 wood or 3 iron, whichever does it for you. The rough in my game today was penalizing, and every time I was in it, forget about reaching the green in 2.

3) Did you just piddle it 50 yards forward into some rough stuff? Decide the only way you can score low is to try the 3 wood out of it? Don't bother. People try ridiculous recovery shots after piddling it. Hit a solid 5 iron to 130 yards, then do a nice approach. Its next to IMPOSSIBLE to hit a wood out of deep rough. Besides, its amazing how well you can do after a bad shot if you make 2 solid ones after.

4) Percentages. Like poker, the best way to make a choice is to be honest about your chances. If you are over the ball thinking "Im not sure if this is the right club", then its the WRONG club. If you've got a driver in your hand, and you haven't been hitting it well, save it for another day.

5) What is your goal? To have fun, or score low. If its fun, use the driver.
05-20-2004 10:43 AM
el tigre

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken27

"When selecting a club, what are the first three keys to judge by?"

As someone's who's handicap has gone back up to 21, Im not sure I'm qualified either, but I think Deep Woods and Andru have covered it. To simplify it to 3 keys, I would probably say:

1) Plan ahead - don't just look at the shot you're facing now, but look ahead to the shots after that. Especially important on par 5s, short par 4s and when putting.
2) Minimize your mistakes - AKA take what the course gives you. Play the club that puts in the wide part of the fairway or away from hazards, etc. See where the trouble is around the green and choose clubs accordingly. Pitch out to the fairway if you go into the trees. Low scores are not the result of great shots - they happen when you make good misses.
3) Play to YOUR strengths - select a club based on your average distance with it, not your best distance. If your shots have a low trajectory, don't try shots over trees - if your shots have a high trajectory, always play a lay up into the wind. Use the clubs you hit the best whenever you have the opportunity.

Here are a couple of examples of what I feel are "course management" holes:

Metcalfe #11 (soon to be Metcalfe #2) - par 5 with trees that narrow the fairway at 200 to 250 yards out and a ditch further down the fairway. Why play driver if you can't reach in 2? Tee off with an iron, go through the chute of trees with a iron to be in front of the ditch or a wood to clear it. There's water in back of the green, so if you're between clubs, play short. That's planning ahead, and minimizing your mistakes.

Emerald Links West #4 - narrow, reachable par 4 with OB left, lateral water hazard right and bunkers from 150 to 200 yards directly in front of the tee. The widest landing area is actually just in front of the green. The key is to play to YOUR strengths. If you're a good irons player but not accurate with woods, hit an iron and then a wedge. If like me you're better with fairway goods, go for the front of the green but make sure you miss right instead of left.
05-20-2004 12:40 PM
jvincent

I'm definitely in the camp of playing two different games, one for "fun", AKA driver all the time, and one when I play a course management game, AKA hit to very specific distances on certain holes.

Not surprisingly, I usually score better when I play course managment golf.

Since I'm not playing in any tournaments at the moment and there generally isn't money riding on my game, I usually choose the "fun" game.
05-20-2004 12:52 PM
Big_duck

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvincent

I'm definitely in the camp of playing two different games, one for "fun", AKA driver all the time, and one when I play a course management game, AKA hit to very specific distances on certain holes.

Not surprisingly, I usually score better when I play course managment golf.

Since I'm not playing in any tournaments at the moment and there generally isn't money riding on my game, I usually choose the "fun" game.

Helps keep the hdcp index up too!! :lol2
05-20-2004 02:18 PM
powerlefty

My index is just under 11. One good thought I expressed from a PGA Tour player a few years ago: "Don't make 2 mistakes in a row". In other words, if you hit it in the junk don't try a miracle shot (e.g. 250 yards out of deep rough, from a hanging lie, over water, to small green) to make up for it. Just lay it up to a good safe spot and ensure you limit the damage and hope to wedge it close and make a put to save your score. I also like the thoughts expressed earlier which seem to follow the general theme of play the hole by starting at the green and work backward - where is the pin on the green? so where in the fairway do I want to be to give me the best shot at the green? now what club to hit and does that bring trouble into play off the tee. I've gone from hitting 12 drivers a round to an average of 9 or less.

I must admit though, I can't resist that 250 yd shot over water to the small green - it feels good the 20% of the time it works!
05-20-2004 02:28 PM
jvincent

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerlefty

I must admit though, I can't resist that 250 yd shot over water to the small green - it feels good the 20% of the time it works!

As someone who has NEVER played the 18th at Eagle Creek the long way, i.e. around the dogleg, I have to concur.

All this "Smart Golf" talk has me considering playing smart this weekend. I'll see what my mood is like.
05-20-2004 03:12 PM
Andru

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvincent

As someone who has NEVER played the 18th at Eagle Creek the long way, i.e. around the dogleg, I have to concur.

All this "Smart Golf" talk has me considering playing smart this weekend. I'll see what my mood is like.

I don't think playing the long way around eagle creek is smart. The peninsula isn't that hard to hit. Plus you can always over club on the second shot. The bunkers will catch the ball. I think the smart play is the short cut. Even if you're a righty and you slice there's room to miss.
05-20-2004 03:24 PM
mberube

I always say SMART golf is FUN golf. If you hit driver on every hole and it costs you a double or triple, the end result is, NOT having fun.

I few years back I was playing at Virginia State U (no I was not a student, my brother in law went to school there) and I hade trouble driving the ball straight. In the club house there was a used Callaway war bird 3 wood for 80$. I tried it out and man, that club changed my game. I could not hit the ball off line. That club gave me confidence like you could not believe. Needles to say that I purchased the club.

I learned that summer that the driver is not necessary to score low. Put the ball in plays where it needs to be to have the best possible second shot. You must have a go-too-club in your bag to give you confidence. A club that you have no hesitation when hitting. If that’s a 5, 6 or 7 iron well that’s what you must hit.

I played a tournament last year. Three clubs, three balls from the red tees. Very interesting. It makes you think on the course when you have a 3 iron, 9 iron, a putter and a 65yard shot! :-)
05-20-2004 03:25 PM
The Shtick

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerlefty

My index is just under 11. One good thought I expressed from a PGA Tour player a few years ago: "Don't make 2 mistakes in a row". In other words, if you hit it in the junk don't try a miracle shot (e.g. 250 yards out of deep rough, from a hanging lie, over water, to small green) to make up for it. Just lay it up to a good safe spot and ensure you limit the damage and hope to wedge it close and make a put to save your score. I also like the thoughts expressed earlier which seem to follow the general theme of play the hole by starting at the green and work backward - where is the pin on the green? so where in the fairway do I want to be to give me the best shot at the green? now what club to hit and does that bring trouble into play off the tee. I've gone from hitting 12 drivers a round to an average of 9 or less.

I must admit though, I can't resist that 250 yd shot over water to the small green - it feels good the 20% of the time it works!

How true it is....

You know something that I'll never learn. When I play, I pound the crap outta my driver and expect the worst. Mind you, I'm the best at scrambling in the world, just ask me! (Kevin Haime talk..). To tell you the truth though, I hate playing boring golf (ie. safe shots all the time). Sure, I want the ball to always be in the fairway off the tee but I guess that I'm not confident in myself to make that a reality. Therefore, I take pride in my scrambling skills.

There are many ways to play golf. There is no "right" way or "wrong" way. It's all a matter of choices and decisions. If you decide to never take lessons and base your game on pure instinct (like I do), you are making a huge gamble. Sometimes it pays off. If you drink your milk and take your vitamins (ie. lessons, etc.) you have a better chance of improving your game course management wise. That's what teachers are for.

As for me, I'll sit back and enjoy my 9.1 index and keep on gambling! :noddin
05-20-2004 03:26 PM
jvincent

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andru

I don't think playing the long way around eagle creek is smart. The peninsula isn't that hard to hit. Plus you can always over club on the second shot. The bunkers will catch the ball. I think the smart play is the short cut. Even if you're a righty and you slice there's room to miss.

I agree with you. Going the long way can, depending on how far you hit the ball and which tees you are playing, be tougher. I've played with a fair number of people who have the length and just won't go for the peninsula.

For me, there's nothing like pulling off those two dead carries over water back to back. FWIW, still no eagles on that hole for me. A few 3-putt pars and some birdies, but no eagles........ Yet.
05-20-2004 03:45 PM
el tigre

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Shtick

To tell you the truth though, I hate playing boring golf (ie. safe shots all the time). Sure, I want the ball to always be in the fairway off the tee but I guess that I'm not confident in myself to make that a reality.

Schtick, I don't think that "course management" necessarily means playing conservative ALL THE TIME. But the reward has to be worth the risk - and that means the reward has to be a reasonable chance at saving a stroke. Hitting an approach with a 9-iron instead of a 6-iron just isn't worth it. For example:

Mont Cascades #7 - definately you should tee off with a driver. Catch the hill in the right spot, and you can easily be in position to reach the green in 2. Worth the risk.

Mont Cascades #16 - even if you bomb it, the green is waaaay uphill with a tree blocking the right side. Very unlikely you can go for the green in 2 - 99% of the time you are laying up to the same spot below the green in front of the creek. So what's the reward for teeing off with a driver - laying up with a 9-iron instead of 6-iron? Big deal!
05-20-2004 03:54 PM
The Shtick

Quote:

Originally Posted by el tigre

Schtick, I don't think that "course management" necessarily means playing conservative ALL THE TIME. But the reward has to be worth the risk - and that means the reward has to be a reasonable chance at saving a stroke. Hitting an approach with a 9-iron instead of a 6-iron just isn't worth it. For example:

Mont Cascades #7 - definately you should tee off with a driver. Catch the hill in the right spot, and you can easily be in position to reach the green in 2. Worth the risk.

Mont Cascades #16 - even if you bomb it, the green is waaaay uphill with a tree blocking the right side. Very unlikely you can go for the green in 2 - 99% of the time you are laying up to the same spot below the green in front of the creek. So what's the reward for teeing off with a driver - laying up with a 9-iron instead of 6-iron? Big deal!

Actually, on #7 I hit driver, 5 iron to lay up at 170yds to the green. On #16 I hit driver, 3 wood.... yup, I go for it.

My point is that I play "stupid" golf. Maybe I, as a person, am "stupid" then. But then again, I am a good scrambler, and I have the handicap to proove it. :-)
05-20-2004 03:56 PM
NoBack

Quote:

Originally Posted by el tigre

Mont Cascades #16 - even if you bomb it, the green is waaaay uphill with a tree blocking the right side. Very unlikely you can go for the green in 2 - 99% of the time you are laying up to the same spot below the green in front of the creek. So what's the reward for teeing off with a driver - laying up with a 9-iron instead of 6-iron? Big deal!

el tigre
I've seen many players play cascades and the majority who hit long balls would have an easier time with no. 16 (uphill / over water and flat lie) rather than no 7 (downhill / sidehill and over trees)
:bigcheek
05-20-2004 03:57 PM
Andru

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvincent

I agree with you. Going the long way can, depending on how far you hit the ball and which tees you are playing, be tougher. I've played with a fair number of people who have the length and just won't go for the peninsula.

For me, there's nothing like pulling off those two dead carries over water back to back. FWIW, still no eagles on that hole for me. A few 3-putt pars and some birdies, but no eagles........ Yet.

I have one eagle there from the blues. Driver , 3 iron, ten foot putt.

I don't get it. The landing area is sooo large. Unless there's a strong wind blowing in. I go for it everytime. There's no layup on that hole.!!!!! Now that's fun.
05-20-2004 04:07 PM
NoBack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andru

I have one eagle there from the blues. Driver , 3 iron, ten foot putt.

I don't get it. The landing area is sooo large. Unless there's a strong wind blowing in. I go for it everytime. There's no layup on that hole.!!!!! Now that's fun.

Lay up?????????
Only time I touch the fairway is when I go to and from the pennisula :noddin
05-20-2004 04:23 PM
jvincent

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andru

I have one eagle there from the blues. Driver , 3 iron, ten foot putt.

I don't get it. The landing area is sooo large. Unless there's a strong wind blowing in. I go for it everytime. There's no layup on that hole.!!!!! Now that's fun.

Wind is the biggest problem. If it's a strong tail wind you have to be careful about not hitting it over the peninsula. Into a stiff breeze it can be hard to reach.
05-20-2004 04:40 PM
Andru

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Karam

Lay up?????????
Only time I touch the fairway is when I go to and from the pennisula :noddin

:lol2
05-20-2004 05:04 PM
el tigre

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Karam

el tigre
I've seen many players play cascades and the majority who hit long balls would have an easier time with no. 16 (uphill / over water and flat lie) rather than no 7 (downhill / sidehill and over trees)

That surprises me, but then I've never been a long hitter. On 16, do they often make the green in 2? The longer you hit it the more the tree comes into play. If you miss the green, you're probably in the woods or in the water.

As for 7, hitting over trees has never been a problem for me. If I'm short I lay up, but if I catch the hill on the left side and have a decent lie, I'm probably in range.
05-20-2004 05:25 PM
NoBack

Quote:

Originally Posted by el tigre

That surprises me, but then I've never been a long hitter. On 16, do they often make the green in 2? The longer you hit it the more the tree comes into play. If you miss the green, you're probably in the woods or in the water.

As for 7, hitting over trees has never been a problem for me. If I'm short I lay up, but if I catch the hill on the left side and have a decent lie, I'm probably in range.

Firstly yes they do make it...............dont forget they hit the ball longer and use less club to get to the green. Often hitting high 3-4 irons which they cut , fade draw whichever they like. I lay up too :-)

On 7 its more gamble as the trees covering the front left side of the green and the trees to the left are a pain. so Lay up there is smarter. :bigcheek
05-20-2004 07:39 PM
LobWedge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andru

I don't think playing the long way around eagle creek is smart. The peninsula isn't that hard to hit. Plus you can always over club on the second shot. The bunkers will catch the ball. I think the smart play is the short cut. Even if you're a righty and you slice there's room to miss.

I have to disagree with you here Andru. Any time you have a forced carry over water your chances of making a big number are greater. Double that for the 18th at Eagle Creek. Two half decent shots "the long way around" leave you with an approach at the length of the green, not the width, and if you come up short, at least you're dry. The long play to the bunker creates a problem too. You're playing a sand shot back towards the water. Hit it fat, leave it in the bunker, hit it thin and you're swimming.
05-20-2004 07:58 PM
Andru

Quote:

Originally Posted by LobWedge

I have to disagree with you here Andru. Any time you have a forced carry over water your chances of making a big number are greater. Double that for the 18th at Eagle Creek. Two half decent shots "the long way around" leave you with an approach at the length of the green, not the width, and if you come up short, at least you're dry. The long play to the bunker creates a problem too. You're playing a sand shot back towards the water. Hit it fat, leave it in the bunker, hit it thin and you're swimming.

Depends on how comfortable you are with your bunker play and long shots. If you're on the peninsula I think the longest carry is 220 yards.

Also EC keeps they're greens so soft the ball will hold if it's in the air. Hey everyone's game is different. It was mentioned that some players with enough length were bailing on the short cut. If you have the length. It's a worth while risk. That's all I'm saying.

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