Match Play or Stroke Play?

[LobWedge]

Maybe they should consider instead of the 96% calculation, generate your handicap based on a 14 hole average, removing your best 2 holes and worst 2 holes from each round, similar to what they do in sports like diving and such. It seems to me that it would work better than ESC too because that can theoretically apply on every hole and further skew a true hole score.

Food for thought...

[el tigre]

Maybe they should consider instead of the 96% calculation, generate your handicap based on a 14 hole average, removing your best 2 holes and worst 2 holes from each round, similar to what they do in sports like diving and such. It seems to me that it would work better than ESC too because that can theoretically apply on every hole and further skew a true hole score.

Food for thought...

Your proposal would decrease a HHC's handicap number LESS than what ESC does, and therefore work against the LHC. The purpose of ESC and "best 10 of 20" is to lower the handicap MORE for HHCs than for LHCs, thereby making the difference in their numbers smaller.

I can understand why some people are opposed to a handicap system on principle. Why should someone who posts a higher score end up as the winner? But if you're going to have a handicap system in order to get more golfers participating in your tournaments, the RCGA/USGA systems in place do a pretty good job on making things equal. It is only when the handicap difference is 15 - 20 strokes that it really seems to break down.

[BC MIST]

I have addressed it. I have pointed out that while the LHC has a lower margin of improvement, he also has a lower margin of failure, meaning that there is an equal, if not greater opportunity for the LHC to win when the HHC balloons to a high score. If it was such a foregone conclusion that a HHC will play better when he has to, then how does his handicap get so high? If not, then why isn't his margin for improvement smaller?

I think gb's stats prove that 80% skews the results unfairly toward the LHC. In fact, I think it proves more than that, since a LOT of the highest handicap players don't enter anymore and who's left? A's and a few B's. So in a sample where the range from high to low is almost never 10 handicap strokes, I think this emphasizes the result.

I'm not saying that there isn't some adjustment to be made, but just skewing back in the opposite direction isn't really a solution.

If a HHC player "balloons to a high score," on any particular hole, he will have only lost 1 hole, but may have lost several strokes in his medal game. His handicap is based on medal games and even with ESC, I believe that his handicap is inflated if he frequently uses it for match play events. If he was playing in medal matches, versus match matches, I agree that 100% of the difference should be given.

I think gb's stats prove that 80% skews the results unfairly toward the LHC. True, but only very slightly. Take those same 76 matches, give the full difference and then calculate the proportion of wins and the HHC player will win more than the 55% that the LHC player did with our using 80%. This is why my 80% was only a suggestion as the fairest difference seems to be closer to 85%.

Lastly, I have had a lot of experience playing in such events over the years and only once did I ever win the event giving strokes. Typically, I would get beaten in the first round, scoring around par and losing by some lobsided result. One I do remember from Mississippi is medaling 70 and losing 6&5. To win I would have to score 30 on both nines, instead of just one.

[gbower]

This year we had 39 sign up for the match play and the breakdown is as follows:
"A" - 16
"B" - 17
"C" - 6

This is just about the same numbers as we had in our club championship. Not too many of the "C" players want to play in any kind of competition and often have to be talked into playing. The numbers were pretty much the same last year.

[spidey]

Lastly, I have had a lot of experience playing in such events over the years and only once did I ever win the event giving strokes. Typically, I would get beaten in the first round, scoring around par and losing by some lobsided result. One I do remember from Mississippi is medaling 70 and losing 6&5. To win I would have to score 30 on both nines, instead of just one.

I understand, honestly. I see what you're saying and I understand your frustration.

However, if you shot 30 on both nines, and somebody shot 29 and 30, then you lose. Even if you play spectacular golf, and he is in the weeds and sand all day, he still gets the trophy.

Well, that's the spin of of net play. It changes the probablility from the lowest scorer, to a random scorer. In net play, you should see a different winner all the time, or at least you should see the winner be the person who's handicap is coming down the fastest at that particular time. ie. the best player vs. his personal history, rather than the best player against the field.

Ultimately, the purpose of net play is to encourage everybody to come out and play since everybody has an equal chance of winning the tournament. I've never won a club tournament, but when my odds are cut when I'm playing against somebody who's better than me to begin with, it's pretty discouraging.

....however, I'd like to point out that I enter all club tournaments regardless of whether I like the way they're run and regardless of whether I think my chances are slim. I'm there to compete, and to applaud the winner, whoever they may be. I would like them to be there to applaud me when and if I ever win.

My handicap is as honest as anybody's at the club, more honest than many. I cannot shoot a lower score than my best scores of the year, this year. I'm at a disadvantage. My handicap is 9 which spots me at 81. My chances of shooting a 79 or better are about 3 in 60, or about 20:1. Therefore if I'm losing 2 strokes in handicap vs. a better player, my handicap number becomes one that I've only scored about 3 times this year. Tell me what you think my chances of winning are. Basically, I cannot make any mistakes. So far that has held true. I have never won a singles match. I refuse to sandbag a handicap that I can actually beat under pressure on command.

[Big Johnny69]

Well said spidey. I can see your point of view.

[el tigre]

Lastly, I have had a lot of experience playing in such events over the years and only once did I ever win the event giving strokes. Typically, I would get beaten in the first round, scoring around par and losing by some lobsided result.

If you are scratch golfer, scoring around par is simply playing to your handicap, isn't it? If I play to my handicap in a tournament, I'll probably lose too.

One I do remember from Mississippi is medaling 70 and losing 6&5. To win I would have to score 30 on both nines, instead of just one.

When you were down 6 with 5 to go, the match was over. So you played out the last 5 holes anyway after the match was decided and scored a 30 on the back nine, correct?

It is still a very impressive 9 holes of golf, BC. But I suspect if you had carded the 30 on the front nine rather than the back, then that would have been enough to change the outcome of the match. If you really need to shoot 60 to win a match, your opponent is cheating.

[Kilroy]

If I play to my handicap in a tournament, I'll probably lose too.

Since your handicap is based on your 10 best, playing to your handicap is playing rather well. You may not win, but it was a good day on the course, so you should place well.

[BC MIST]

If you are scratch golfer, scoring around par is simply playing to your handicap, isn't it? If I play to my handicap in a tournament, I'll probably lose too. When you were down 6 with 5 to go, the match was over. So you played out the last 5 holes anyway after the match was decided and scored a 30 on the back nine, correct?

No. The reference to the 30 was to make a point with Spidey with whom I played two Tuesdays ago when, believe it or not, I actually scored a 30, my best ever 9 holes. [/QUOTE]

But the fairer solution is simply to set up different flights to ensure that a scratch vs HHC match never occurs.

Agree 100%(not 80%). Then, of course, there is the problem of an "A" arranging to have himself play as a "B." But this never happens anymore, does it?

[Marmotte]

To go back to the original question.... Match play is a superior format, in particular when you do not have to contend with the handicap (or handicrapp). I am a high handicap player and prefer by far to par or birdie a hole because I had a good hole than to get an ace on a par three because my handicap knocks down two strokes.

Much of the discussion here centres around ways of playing with the handicaps and in many cases fail to understand their purpose and intended use. After going through this thread, I feel even more convinced that there are too many players who prefer to tinker with the stats to show a better score.

For years now, the Slammer Tour has organized weekly events in total disregard of the handicap system. And this is why I am still around. Yes we do have fun! Yes, we do have guys bragging about their MEDAL scores, when only the HOLES scores matter. Yes you can win a match against a scratch player with a score of 110. All you have to do is win the first ten holes and you can post 9 and 10s for the remaining ones. The 110 does not matter.

[1dash1]

In any given match, assuming honest handicaps, there's no reason to reduce the assigned handicaps by an 80% factor. Statistically, the lower handicapper already has a built-in advantage. There is no reason to give him a further advantage, other than to give him further advantage.

Golf Digest briefly touched on this subject a few years ago in analyzing "Steady Eddie" versus "Wild Willie".

http://www.popeofslope.com/guidelines/anti.html

However, in a stroke play tournament with a large field of competitors, the high handicap group may have a better chance of winning the tournament, even though (as a group) they tend to score poorly. That is because, although few of the high handicappers will do well, it is possible that one or more will do very well - well enough to win.

[dH]

MATCH!

You beat your opponent not the course; you can win a hole by 1 or 20 and next hole your back to even. It's similar to skins but I dont play for money as this sport is just fun and costs enough already; also in skins you can get burnt if you tie all the time and loose 1 hole.

I love match;I tied a guy yesterday who at one point had a handicap of 12; I'm a 35 handicap right now lol but I beat him on some par 3's; had some lucky chips and we ended up tieing through the match play format. Stroke woulda been a blowout.