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07-07-2005 07:40 PM #311dash1Guest
Dan, BC:
In that case, if you're going to interfere against your teammates, then you ought to interfere against your teammate's opponents as well. Fair is fair.
But wouldn't it be simpler, in the long run, to just let them play their own match without inteference?
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07-07-2005 07:47 PM #32
Cheating is cheating.
Quite different when someone is ignorant of a proceedure, but I'd try my best to help them prevent a costly error regardless of what side they play for or which way the ruling went.
This is golf not baseball / hockey / football / soccer etc, where you cheat all you can and hope not to get a penalty for cheating. I get a penalty when I put the ball in a hazzard. If I cheat, I'll be playing alone in the future.
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07-07-2005 11:53 PM #33Originally Posted by BC MIST
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07-08-2005 12:11 AM #34Originally Posted by 1dash1
Decision 2-5/1 Player’s Obligation Re: Lodging Claim
In match play, a player may disregard a breach of the Rules by his opponent, provided there is no agreement between the players. There is a difference between overlooking an opponent’s breach and agreement with the opponent to waive a penalty. Rule 1-3 prohibits the latter.
Decision 2-5/1 allows an opponent in match play to overlook a breach of a Rule by his opponent.
Are you suggesting that the referee and the player argue over whether a penalty should be called on the opponent?
Originally Posted by 1dash1
34-3. Committee’s Decision
In the absence of a referee, any dispute or doubtful point on the Rules must be referred to the Committee, whose decision is final.
Show me the Rule that says a Committee may delegate rulings to the players themselves.
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07-08-2005 12:23 AM #35Originally Posted by 1dash1
I am ALWAYS waiting like a vulture for situations where players may get into trouble with the rules when I play match play. I dont usually have to wait long.
I humbly suggest you have no idea how the game was intended to be played.
Formerly in the Rules, "stymies" were a perfectly acceptable way to play the game.
(Putt your ball into the line of another player so hit could not make his putt instead of trying to hole your putt).
It is absolutely correct for spectators to offer their testimony on the events they witness.
Are you suggesting that a WRONG ruling without spectator testimony is better than the CORRECT ruling without spectator testimony?
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07-08-2005 12:25 AM #36Originally Posted by BC MIST
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07-08-2005 12:30 AM #37Originally Posted by Dan Kilbank
It is just YOU and your OPPONENT.
If your opponent breaches a Rule:
1. You may make a claim; or
2. You may disregard the breach.
Neither of these is "cheating."
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07-08-2005 01:18 AM #381dash1GuestOriginally Posted by Gary Hill
The above statements are contradictory.
I'd say that if you are not not part of the match, you are an outside agency, same as the spectator. And the rules are equally silent on outside agencies butting in or volunteering testimony.
Wisely so, in my opinion. The rules govern the play of the game, not the conduct of non-participants.
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07-08-2005 04:51 AM #391dash1GuestOriginally Posted by Gary Hill
.
.
Originally Posted by Gary Hill
A wrong ruling without spectator testimony versus
A correct ruling without spectator testimony.
Last edited by 1dash1; 07-08-2005 at 09:45 PM.
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07-08-2005 10:10 AM #40Originally Posted by Gary Hill[color=blue]s[/color][color=red]p[/color][color=blue]i[/color][color=red]d[/color][color=blue]e[/color][color=red]y[/color]
[color=seagreen]"Got more dirt than ball. Here we go again."
Alan Shepard, Apollo 14 Commander, Amateur-Golfer, preparing to take another swing during his famous moon walk in 1971.
[/color]
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07-08-2005 02:20 PM #411dash1Guest
Originally Posted by 1dash1
You also mentioned that there is no such thing as the group being authorized to make rulings.
REALISTICALLY, for what I assume is a reasonably high level competition (the intersectionals), they would follow the normal procedure of claims, as you described.
However, THEORETICALLY, the Committee may do so under its general powers of Rule 33-1. And you might see this happen at a club tournament where the usual Committee members might comprise half the competitors in the first place.
Originally Posted by Gary Hill
I was alluding to what happens when Committees stipulate wrong things in their Conditions of Competition.
However, you are correct. While the Committee's incorrect procedure may still stand (with no one to overturn it because it was the Committee itself that stipulated so), it is nevertheless still wrong as far as the Rules of Golf are concerned.
So, for the purposes of this discussion, my answer was unacceptable. I respectfully withdraw that response. (I've edited it accordingly.)
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07-15-2005 03:11 PM #42
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Originally Posted by BC MIST
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07-15-2005 04:11 PM #43Originally Posted by putterking
Everybody is on the clock once they start looking for their ball. If Player A failed to begin timing himself, then he has no evidence to dispute the fact that he has taken longer than allowed.
Lost Ball
A ball is deemed “lost’’ if:
a. It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it; or
Getting visibly angry shows a lack of etiquette and sportsmanship, not to mention self control. Maybe if Player A gets angry enough, everybody should just concede to him...?[color=blue]s[/color][color=red]p[/color][color=blue]i[/color][color=red]d[/color][color=blue]e[/color][color=red]y[/color]
[color=seagreen]"Got more dirt than ball. Here we go again."
Alan Shepard, Apollo 14 Commander, Amateur-Golfer, preparing to take another swing during his famous moon walk in 1971.
[/color]
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07-16-2005 01:23 AM #44Originally Posted by putterking
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07-16-2005 07:56 PM #45
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Rules Of Golf
Hello Gary.
You do a wonderful job of explaining some of the Rules Of Golf on here. Keep up the good work.
Maybe this will help others, it is all right here. Start reading people!
http://rcga.org/english/Rules/rules.aspMy opinions are my own, I do not follow others.
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07-18-2005 10:25 AM #46Originally Posted by putterking
NO. A rule is a rule. Why not just pick your ball up and drop it on the green? Either play by the rules or don't bother. From the beginning of a search, you have 5 minutes. After that, the ball is lost.
The Facts:
Player D thought the ball was lost in DEEP forest. That's why he didn't look for the ball. Player C and D also did not help with the search (for the same reason I assume). Player A looked for about 5 minutes then decided that since he couldn't find the ball, it "must" have gone in a hazard that was 50 yards further than the ball could have possible gone. When Played D explained that there is no way the ball went into the hazard and that it was back in the forest 80 yards back the battle was on and Player A started cursing and swearing. When player A walked back 30 or 40 yards he did find his ball. Player D was a little shocked since he was sure the ball was in the deep woods. When player A went to play the ball, Player D told him it had taken too long to find it. That's when all H@ll broke loose. Player A took around 9 minutes to find the ball. Player D only started timing after the search had been going for a few minutes as he thought the ball would never be found and didn't want to hold up play. Player D showed his caddie the time when the clock came out, just to be fair. Had player D known, he would have made a "claim" and just moved on. Instead, the group was stuck trying to decide something that was impossible to decide since Players B and C just wanted to have a "Nice Day" and player A was acting like he belonged in the criminal institution.
The funny part:
Player B and C don't say anything because they aren't sure how long it took to find the ball.
Player D is forced by the rules the call a rules violation since he knows, for a fact, that it took longer than five minutes because he was timing the search.
Player A just went ahead and played his ball anyway and threatened the "kill" player D several times because he didn't like what player D was saying even thought player D did not have a choice.
You cannot waive a rule of golf even if you just want to have a "nice day". Yes there is sportmanship in the Intersectionals but sportmanship and rules are two different things.
Saying "they're not on tour" is just condesending and irrelavent. This kind of attitude is definitely part of the "problem" in my opinion. If you want to waive rules or pick some of the rules to follow, please don't play tournament golf. As for the intersectionals, this IS tournament golf, make no mistake.
SH
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07-18-2005 11:03 AM #47
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I completely agree that all rules of golf must be adhered to. Threatening an opponent is totally unacceptable and he should have been disqualified from his matches. Unfortunately the OVGA rep was not driving around during the matches. He could have talked to the other players and if indeed he found out that a player had been threatened, he could have dq'd the offender. The only point that I was trying to make about the timing situation is that it would have solved all the problems if all players would have been informed that someone was going to use a timer when doing a search. That would have at least taken the guess work out of trying to decide how long a search was taking. Even the pros are told beforehand when they are on the clock for slow play. Can you imagine if a PGA official suddenly produced a watch and told a player that he was being penalized for slow play without giving him advance warning? I realize they are two different rules but IMO it would have the same effect.
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07-18-2005 11:10 AM #48
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Originally Posted by Gary Hill
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07-18-2005 11:45 AM #49Originally Posted by putterking
It is a very simple matter to say: "OK if I help look?"
BTW - I never look "deeper" in the woods than the player himself.
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07-18-2005 12:03 PM #50Originally Posted by putterking
When I started timing that day, I showed my caddie the time thinking this would be fair since I was sure he wasn't going to find the ball. I never thought someone would accuse me of starting it early. Looking back, I can see how that may have seemed nasty even though it was never meant that way.
Just trying to forget about it now since my team won the day anyway. The previous poster just touched a nerve.
SH
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07-18-2005 12:13 PM #51Originally Posted by putterking
Later that day someone complained about MY sportsmanship in this situation. I may not have done everthing right when timing the search but that does not erase the fact that a rule HAD been broken and the terrible behavior that followed.
"The day the messenger got shot, stepped on, rolled over"
SH
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07-18-2005 01:16 PM #52
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Originally Posted by Sphere Hunter
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