"Ricky's" #1

[BC MIST]

Since there are those that enjoy the "hypotheticals," have a go at this. One of the exercises that our OVGA rules group enjoy doing are "Ricky's." Ricky is a blundering idiot of a golfer who obviously knows nothing about the rules. (Any resemblance to anyone here is purely coincidental. )

The following is a description that I gave the group, of the 1st of 6 parts of Ricky's play on Hole #1. The idea is to determine the number of strokes taken, either actual strokes and penalties, AND the decision OR the rule that is involved in determining the number of strokes. When the 1st has been answered correctly, I will provide a description of the other 5 parts for hole #1.

Hole #1

1. Ricky’s tee time for the”A” Class Field day was 10:40. On route to the course, the car in front of him jumped the off ramp and slipped into a ditch. Ricky called 9-1-1 and then helped the injured driver out of the car. When ambulance and police arrived, Ricky gave his account of the accident to the officer before he continued to the course. He arrived at the tee at 10:45, only to see his fellow competitors already walking down the fairway. He explained what happened to the starter and the starter said he could start play but that he would get a ruling later, from AAA, the referee.

[spackler]

I think this happened to Steve Flesch two weeks ago. It's a 2 shot penalty for missing the start time. If the FCs had finished the hole, Ricky would've been DQ'd.

[spackler]

Although I see 33-7 says that "A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted."

*edit* Anything less than DQ must not be waived.

[nokids]

without looking at the rule book i would have guessed that Ricky could get a note from the police officer and everything would be cool. however, i will go look into my rule book and back up my guess with a rule.

[nokids]

rule 6.3 says if a player isn't on time established by the committee the penalty is disqualification. Note: if the player arrives ready to play within 5 minutes after his starting time, the committe may waive the DQ to loss of the first hole in match play or two strokes at the first hole in stroke play. (33-7)

so my final answer is: it's up to the committee to decide based on Ricky's story.

[BC MIST]

rule 6.3 says if a player isn't on time established by the committee the penalty is disqualification. Note: if the player arrives ready to play within 5 minutes after his starting time, the committe may waive the DQ to loss of the first hole in match play or two strokes at the first hole in stroke play. (33-7)
so my final answer is: it's up to the committee to decide based on Ricky's story.

Normally, if you are not present at your scheduled T time, you are DQ'd. But, if the committee has established, in the Conditions of Competition, the "5 minute rule," then as long as Ricky's arrival is not more than 5 minutes after his T time, he would be allowed to play. The OVGA has this rule in effect for all of its tournaments.

The condition that would warrant the waiving of the DQ penalty is found in Decision 6-3a/1.5. #5 indicates that if a player was at the scene of an accident and provided medical assistance or was a witness, he should not be DQ'd. Therefore, Ricky would have been allowed to play whether the 5 minute was in effect or not. It is the committee's decision.

Here are parts 2 and 3 from Hole #1.

2. Ricky’s tee shot hooked into the bush on the left and came to rest under a tree.

3. As he made his downswing on the next shot, his club got caught on a branch above the ball, stopping his swing before impact. Wisely, he decided to chip the ball back on to the fairway.

[nokids]

The condition that would warrant the waiving of the DQ penalty is found in Decision 6-3a/1.5. #5 indicates that if a player was at the scene of an accident and provided medical assistance or was a witness, he should not be DQ'd. Therefore, Ricky would have been allowed to play whether the 5 minute was in effect or not. It is the committee's decision.

why would GT sell me a 2007 version of the rule book in 2009?

i dont have 6-3a/1.5 in my book.

[nokids]

Here are parts 2 and 3 from Hole #1.

2. Ricky’s tee shot hooked into the bush on the left and came to rest under a tree.

3. As he made his downswing on the next shot, his club got caught on a branch above the ball, stopping his swing before impact. Wisely, he decided to chip the ball back on to the fairway.

the swing that caught the branch is considered 1 stroke. and his chip is another 1 stroke. now let me find the rule to back it up.......

[Kilroy]

i dont have 6-3a/1.5 in my book.

That would be in the decisions book.

Was the Rules of Golf book in the bargain bin? You can order a new one for under $10 directly from the RCGA website.

[Kilroy]

Bookmark this http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-01/ You'll learn to love it. It's very easy to navigate to what you are looking for. Rules Menu on the Left - Text in the middle - Decisons Menu on the Right

[nokids]

That would be in the decisions book.

Was the Rules of Golf book in the bargain bin? You can order a new one for under $10 directly from the RCGA website.

it's one of those mini rule books, bought it for $5 at the cashier's counter.

thanks for the link. i was using google to answer the ricky question but it's unreliable. i thought i had an answer but i dont know if they're talking about golf, ping pong, tennis, raquetball,.....12.8.2???

http://csr.emailone.nu/swing/index.html

[Kilroy]

One can answer any rules question using the rules and decisions site (or books). You just have to get used to the language and learn how to search it effectively. The site is way easier than the books to find stuff. Interpretation is where people trip up. It's kinda like "law lite."

[goochy]

I'd say the swing that got caught in the branch counts as a stroke because it was during the downswing and he did not voluntarily stop the swing.

Sorry, don't know the Rule number.

Obviously his tee shot is a stroke as is his chip out so I say he is lying 3...quite a day our Ricky is having.

[BC MIST]

I'd say the swing that got caught in the branch counts as a stroke because it was during the downswing and he did not voluntarily stop the swing.

Sorry, don't know the Rule number.

Obviously his tee shot is a stroke as is his chip out so I say he is lying 3...quite a day our Ricky is having.

You ain't seen nothing, yet.

[sensfan63]

Ricky's lying two (plus the two strokes for being late).

There wouldn't be a penalty for stopping your downswing, UNLESS the tree branch breaks or leaves come off the branch. (There was no info about this, so I assume the branch was "undisturbed')

[AAA]

Ricky's lying two (plus the two strokes for being late).

There wouldn't be a penalty for stopping your downswing, UNLESS the tree branch breaks or leaves come off the branch. (There was no info about this, so I assume the branch was "undisturbed')

There is no penalty for breaking branches with your forward swing.

The penalty would arise on your backswing if you improved your intented line of swing. The backswing is not part of the stroke.

[BC MIST]

Ricky's lying two (plus the two strokes for being late).

Penalty for being late (2), the drive (1), the whiff (1), the chip out (1) = 5 at this point.

Here are the next two segments of my "Ricky."

4. Ricky’s iron approach shot flew the right distance, but off line, and buried itself under the lip of a greenside bunker. He attempted to extricate the ball from under the lip, but hit into the sand below the ball and it did not move. He declared the ball unplayable and walked back to the location from which the stoke that went under the lip, was played, and placed the ball.

5. He hit a high iron shot to the green that hit the flagstick and caromed to the left, striking David, his fellow competitor who was waiting on the putting green, on the leg, causing the ball to roll off the green onto the fringe.

[sensfan63]

Penalty for being late (2), the drive (1), the whiff (1), the chip out (1) = 5 at this point.

[/I]

I don't think he whiffed.

EDIT - I went back and read the situation again, and going by the info presented, I guess he did indeed whiff. I thought he had pulled back and stopped.

[nokids]

Penalty for being late (2), the drive (1), the whiff (1), the chip out (1) = 5 at this point.

Here are the next two segments of my "Ricky."

4. Ricky’s iron approach shot flew the right distance, but off line, and buried itself under the lip of a greenside bunker. He attempted to extricate the ball from under the lip, but (a) hit into the sand below the ball and it did not move. (b) He declared the ball unplayable and walked back to the location from which the stoke that went under the lip, was played, and placed the ball.

5. (c)He hit a high iron shot to the green that hit the flagstick and caromed to the left, striking David, his fellow competitor who was waiting on the putting green, on the leg, causing the ball to roll off the green onto the fringe.

(a) = 1 stroke, (dont know which rule)
(b) = 1 stroke penalty, rule #28a
(c) = If a player's ball is accidentally deflected or stopped by an opponent, his caddie or his equipment, there is no penalty.
The player may, before another stroke is made by either Side, cancel the stroke and play a ball, without penalty, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5) or he may play the ball as it lies. rule#19-3.

lying 8 shots total so far, and he is going for his 9th shot.

[goochy]

Ok...so one for the Tee shot, one for the stroke stopped by the branch and one for the chip out...that's 3. I forgot the 2 for the late start, that's 5...

Then, the stroke into the bunker (6) and the failed stroke in the bunker (7).

He then declares his ball unplayable BUT he can only go back to the last stroke, which was his bunker miss. If he then picks up his ball and places it where he last played before the bunker (should he have dropped it anyway) and plays he has now played his ball from the wrong spot...a 2 stroke penalty (9). I think the resulting shot that hits a FC is irrelevent. Doesn't he have to go back to the bunker and place it in the hazard and replay from there lying 9....am I warm

[BC MIST]

Ok...so one for the Tee shot, one for the stroke stopped by the branch and one for the chip out...that's 3. I forgot the 2 for the late start, that's 5...

Then, the stroke into the bunker (6) and the failed stroke in the bunker (7).

He then declares his ball unplayable BUT he can only go back to the last stroke, which was his bunker miss. If he then picks up his ball and places it where he last played before the bunker (should he have dropped it anyway) and plays he has now played his ball from the wrong spot...a 2 stroke penalty (9). I think the resulting shot that hits a FC is irrelevent. Doesn't he have to go back to the bunker and place it in the hazard and replay from there lying 9....am I warm

Very good effort by both you and nokids.

1. 5 strokes so far.

Stroke 6 - iron into bunker

Stroke 7 - whiffed stroke in bunker

Stroke 8 - penalty stroke for unplayable ball. Ball MUST be (a) dropped within 2 club lengths of unplayable point, not nearer the hole, (b) along a line from the unplayable point to the hole, and BOTH must be dropped in the bunker. (c) Third option - stoke and distance, no longer available after picking up the ball in the bunker. Note: It is important for golfers to know that if in a very difficult area, say trees or rocks, that careful consideration be given to the stroke and distance option. If you fail in your first attempt to get out of this kind of trouble, there is no further regression back to where you hit the original from.

Stroke 9- the shot to the green from the wrong place.

Strokes 10 and 11 - 2 stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place. NOTE: When a ball is played from a wrong place, the ball is in play. The next question is, from where he played the shot, was it a serious breach, that is, did he gain a significant advantage in inadvertently going back to point from which he hit the ball into the bunker? I would say that he did not. Otherwise, he would be DQ'd if not corrected before leaving the putting green.

His ball hit his fellow competitor, David. Rule 19-4, Ball in Motion Deflected or Stopped, indicates that David is an outside agency, and 19-1 says that a ball deflected by an OA, is a rub of the green. No penalty is assessed and the ball is played as it lies.

Last segment.
6. Deciding to putt the ball, Ricky removed a little sand that was between his ball and the fringe and putted to within 5 feet of the hole. Ricky rotated the ball so that the black line he had drawn on the ball was aligned to the hole. He missed the putt and tapped it in with the grip end of the club.

[Golfmad]

He's allowed to remove the impediment without penalty. 12th shot.

He then goes to town on Rule 20-1. One stroke for not marking the ball before realigning it. 13th stroke is a penalty.

Then he hits 14 before replacing the ball, also a no-no. He incurs the general penalty for playing from the wrong spot: 2 strokes: 16 shots after which his ball is in play.

Then he taps in for a cool 17 on the hole. It isn't really classy, but he can use the grip end of the putter if he so desires.

[Golfmad]

Is the answer coming?

[AAA]

He's allowed to remove the impediment without penalty. 12th shot.

See the definition of Loose Impediment re sand

Then he taps in for a cool 17 on the hole. It isn't really classy, but he can use the grip end of the putter if he so desires.

See Rule 14-1

[sillywilly]

r3? how high can one go as a rules offical?

[Golfmad]

See the definition of Loose Impediment re sand


See Rule 14-1

I thought I did a gave them a thorough read before answering. Thanks for pointing these out. I submitted the answer to be further informed, so really appreciate your reply.

I've just taken a better looks: 4 more strokes on the score. 21 on the hole.

Rob