PGA and Ottawa Courses

[Colby]

Based on the lengthy discussion in another thread, I've pulled out the courses that have been mentioned by posters as to what local course could host the Canadian Open given some work. Which course do you think has the best (realistic) chance?

Sorry if I missed any, I've added an "other" choice.

[cruxradio]

What about Camelot? It's supposed to be the most difficult course in Ottawa.

Based on the lengthy discussion in another thread, I've pulled out the courses that have been mentioned by posters as to what local course could host the Canadian Open given some work. Which course do you think has the best (realistic) chance?

Sorry if I missed any, I've added an "other" choice.

[mberube]

What about Camelot? It's supposed to be the most difficult course in Ottawa.

I played Camelot and it is the most challenging in your face golf course in the Ottawa valley.

[Colby]

What about Camelot? It's supposed to be the most difficult course in Ottawa.

Sorry, I forgot that one.

Dan, can you edit the poll and add Camelot?

[Kilroy]

yup

[Colby]

yup

Thanks Dan.

For those that want to change their vote to Camelot, I think Dan can do that for you.

[faldo]

I re-read the last thread & absorbed all the anti-opinions of all the courses.
Sorry folks, we're not going to be considered. None of our best are good enough

[Farzin]

. Which course do you think has the best (realistic) chance?

Sorry if I missed any, I've added an "other" choice.

Dave:
Realisticly, none. I wish you would have had a choice of None. That's why I didn't vote, and that is my final answer.

[mberube]

Thanks Dan.

For those that want to change their vote to Camelot, I think Dan can do that for you.

You can change my vote from Eagle Creek to Camelot.

[mpare]

For a variety of reasons, I believe that at present none of the Ottawa area courses could realistically host a PGA tournament. This should not be interpreted as an indictment of local courses. It isn't. There are many good courses in our neighbourhood. But, the fact is that they would not be able to satisfy the needs of the PGA tour including, but not limited to, accommodating thousands of fans. However, if forced to vote for one, I would have to say that Camelot could give them all more than enough to think about. The greens are fast and tricky, the length is good, and there are sufficient elevation changes to make them think.

[Colby]

Dave:
Realisticly, none. I wish you would have had a choice of None. That's why I didn't vote, and that is my final answer.

Dan,

Can you add None so Farzin can vote? Others may want that also.

I do say in the first message that some work would be required on the course to facilitate the event. I didn't limit it to the a certain amount.

[LobWedge]

Eagle Creek can host the Canadian Open. (with the following changes)

#1) Move the tee box back to where the small practice green is. Narrow the left side of the fairway. Expand the lake around the back of the 10th green and bring it to the left side of the green.

#2) Double the amount of water in the waste area.

#3) Has to be more dogleg. Move the tee back to the right, to bring the trees on the right in to play.

#4) Nothing. Pin positions will make it tough enough.

#5) Not much room to move. Get rid of the bunkers to the right of the green and bring the water closer. Make the fairway bunkers deeper.

#6) Let the landing area on the peninsula grow in. Make them play the long way around.

#7) Make it a par 4 and play it from the blue tees.

#8) Lots of rough and pin positions.

#9) New tee box further right. Move the water closer to the fairway. Now the big pine tree is in play.

#10) New tee box further back. Take the water all the way around the back and sides of the green.

#11) Let the fringe grow in to shrink the green. Make the waste area deeper.

#12) New tee box 40 yards back.

#13) Expand the fairway bunker towards the fairway. Cut the fairway closer to the water. Shave the rough down on the right side of the green and make it a collection area.

#14) More water in the waste area. Let the far landing area grow in.

#15) Shrink the green and make the bunkers deeper.

#16) Let the rough grow in to narrow the fairway and make the greenside bunkers deeper.

#17) Bring the rough in from the left to increase the dogleg and deepen the bunkers.

#18) Close off the peninsula. Take the long way home.

You now have a 7100 yard par 71.

Needless to say you would bikini wax the greens.

If you change it, they will come.

[Kilroy]

#14) More water in the waste area. Let the far landing area grow in.
#6) Let the landing area on the peninsula grow in. Make them play the long way around.

Why?

#18) Close off the peninsula. Take the long way home.

Yah, that's it. Ruin a great hole.

You have just removed the risk reward factor from the course. I can't imagine why.:jitter

[BC MIST]

For a variety of reasons, I believe that at present none of the Ottawa area courses could realistically host a PGA tournament. This should not be interpreted as an indictment of local courses. It isn't. There are many good courses in our neighbourhood. But, the fact is that they would not be able to satisfy the needs of the PGA tour including, but not limited to, accommodating thousands of fans. However, if forced to vote for one, I would have to say that Camelot could give them all more than enough to think about. The greens are fast and tricky, the length is good, and there are sufficient elevation changes to make them think.

I am not sure where the cars would be parked if Camelot is selected, but it has all the features of a Tour course.

Huge practice facility, beautiful clubhouse, excellent conditioning, and with some yardage added, a sufficient challenge. However, spectator movement may be a problem and there is little room on 18 for spectators to view the action on the final hole.

[LobWedge]

Dan, the problem with #6 & #14 is that for the average PGA tour player it's not a risk when, at an average of about 245 yards, they could make that carry with a 3 wood. I'm not saying eliminate the carry entirely, just make it tougher to make that shot by making them use driver. Otherwise the lefthand fairway would never see a ball and those holes become a joke. Make the carry 270 yards at least. The risk would still be there.

The 18th is just too short from that angle and the landing area on the on the peninsula is too big. For the pros that hole would be 3 wood or 2 iron to the landing area and a mid to short iron for the approach. They would eat that hole alive. You want risk/reward make them go for the green in 2 with a 3 wood over the corner.

The other option for 18 could be to play it as a par 4 from the white tees.

Oh, and by the way, most of these changes would not be permanent so the course would still be playable for the rest of us.

[wopstergolf]

Dan, the problem with #6 & #14 is that for the average PGA tour player it's not a risk when, at an average of about 245 yards, they could make that carry with a 3 wood. I'm not saying eliminate the carry entirely, just make it tougher to make that shot by making them use driver. Otherwise the lefthand fairway would never see a ball and those holes become a joke. Make the carry 270 yards at least. The risk would still be there.

The 18th is just too short from that angle and the landing area on the on the peninsula is too big. For the pros that hole would be 3 wood or 2 iron to the landing area and a mid to short iron for the approach. They would eat that hole alive. You want risk/reward make them go for the green in 2 with a 3 wood over the corner.

The other option for 18 could be to play it as a par 4 from the white tees.

Oh, and by the way, most of these changes would not be permanent so the course would still be playable for the rest of us.

I have to agree with most of what you say, the only thing I would say is for 18, just make the peninsula a bit smaller. There is still the risk/reward factor, but now it just got that much more difficult.

[LobWedge]

I have to agree with most of what you say, the only thing I would say is for 18, just make the peninsula a bit smaller. There is still the risk/reward factor, but now it just got that much more difficult.

Actually, for all the drainage problems that the peninsula causes, they should just dig the thing up and let the water come in to the edge of the main fairway. It would make it a more dramatic hole along the lines of #18 at Pebble Beach or #18 at TPC Sawgrass.

[btasse]

I figured that the votes would be low for Talon since it has not opened yet and wont until June 2004. I did walk it at the end of the year and was amazed at the layout. It will play at 7200 yds from the tip, has elevation change, lots of water and hundreds of deep bunkers (took more than 2 months to fill all the bunkers). It is the same designers that built Fontainebleau in Montreal (Cooke/Huxam) and the courses have a lot of design similarity. Fontainebleau opened in 2003, and will be the site for the Canadian Skins game this year (that's how good the course is).

The Talon course has lots of room for spectators and has been designed to hold some kind of major golf events in the future. Parking and facilities are not an issue. It does not need any course layout changes to hold a major (which most of the other courses will). The course is easy to get to from any location in the city. With Clublink being the owner of the facility it can easily organize and hold a major tournament at Talon. Look at the other clubs it owns where a major has been held (Rocky Crest, Fontainebleau, Glen Abbey, Kanata Lakes, etc, etc). If you add it all up, Talon still gets my vote.

[btasse]

I've played Camelot a bunch of times and i dont think it would be a good test for any majors. In 1995 i was invited at a golf clinic with 2 tour players, Bart and Brad Bryant (they are still playing on the PGA tour). There was 12 of us with the 2 pros and we played 18 holes of golf. The pros alternated between groups. Brad and Bart were not major tour contenders although Bart did win the Disney tournament. Anyway, both players eagled 4 of the par 5's that day and both were 5-7 under par. The course was not much of a challenge to them............. and there are too many par 3's. It appears that some of you think Camelot is difficult, i disagree. I indicated my preference for Talon, but if i had to pick other more difficult courses than Camelot, i would have to go with Eagle Creek, the Marshes and Loch March (and i'm rating these from the back tees).

[jvincent]

Having been fortunate enough to play 3 PGA Tour courses (Pinehurst #2, Torrey Pines South, and Spyglass Hill ) I think that the only course in Ottawa that I have played that stands a chance of challenging the pro's is Eagle Creek, and only if it is played right from the tips.

They would also need to grow in the rough, which is what they do on the PGA tracks anyway.

There are two things that make PGA courses really tough for the average player, length and the speed of the greens. Short for the pro's is 7300 yards. Even on their fastest days, the greens at Stonebridge have nothing on Pinehurst. And that was when they were set at "resort" speed. And did I mention that the greens were hard too?

The key is to be able to take a course and set it up so that it's not only tough but fair.

Logistically of course Eagle Creek would need a lot of work. Most of the nearby land would need to be turned in to parking lots and they'd need to figure out where to put corporate tents, etc.