15 clubs in the bag

[Moose Head]

I was playing a match play competition with the Slammer Tour this weekend and noticed that one of my opponents had 15 clubs in the bag.

This is a guy that is supposed to be a rules guru and he was breaching rules all day and had the nerve to call me on a rule.

I did not call him on it because I beat him 4 and 3 but he had 2 other matches going.

When is it a right time to call someone for having 15 clubs in a bag? What is the result, does he lose the match?

[jvincent]

He should have been penalized two holes in each of the matches.

See rule 4-4 below.

4-4. Maximum of 14 Clubs

a. Selection and Addition of Clubs
The player must start a stipulated round with not more than 14 clubs. He is limited to the clubs thus selected for that round except that, if he started with fewer than 14 clubs, he may add any number provided his total number does not exceed 14.

The addition of a club or clubs must not unduly delay play (Rule 6-7) and the player must not add or borrow any club selected for play by any other person playing on the course.

b. Partners May Share Clubs
Partners may share clubs, provided that the total number of clubs carried by the partners so sharing does not exceed 14.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 4-4a or b,
REGARDLESS OF NUMBER OF EXCESS CLUBS CARRIED:

Match play — At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole for each hole at which a breach occurred. Maximum deduction per round: Two holes.
Stroke play — Two strokes for each hole at which any breach occurred; maximum penalty per round: Four strokes.
Bogey and par competitions — Penalties as in match play.
Stableford competitions — see Note 1 to Rule 32-1b.

c. Excess Club Declared Out of Play
Any club or clubs carried or used in breach of Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4 must be declared out of play by the player to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play immediately upon discovery that a breach has occurred. The player must not use the club or clubs for the remainder of the stipulated round.

[Hacker]

Rule 4-4 a. maximum penalty is the loss of 2 holes

........but you definitely should have called him on it, especially since he is the "Rules Guru"

[AAA]

I was playing a match play competition with the Slammer Tour this weekend and noticed that one of my opponents had 15 clubs in the bag.
When is it a right time to call someone for having 15 clubs in a bag?

As soon as you realise.

What is the result, does he lose the match?

Match play ;— At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole for each hole at which a breach occurred. Maximum deduction per round: Two holes.

Any club or clubs carried or used in breach of Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4 must be declared out of play by the player to his opponent in match play immediately upon discovery that a breach has occurred. The player must not use the club or clubs for the remainder of the stipulated round.

So if you were one down after 16 (and the extra club was found on the 16th) with two to play, you are now one up with two to play.
If you were all square after the first, you are now one up with 17 to play.

[Moose Head]

Thanks guys, now I know.

I guess I should have called him on it even if I was winning the match or not.

[BC MIST]

When is it a right time to call someone for having 15 clubs in a bag?

While some will disagree, waiting until you can "get him" is poor etiquette.

[AAA]

While some will disagree, waiting until you can "get him" is poor etiquette.

If you don't say anything the is a chance you will be DQd under 1-3 particulary if, as in the circumstances here, there seems to be more than one match going on. If the player and a different opponent comment on it but don't advise the guilty party straight away.

[Fallys0820]

I was under the impression with this rule that as long as you realize, as the person WITH the 15th club, that if you declare one of the 15 clubs unplayable at that point, and do not use that club for the entire match, it's basically an umbrella.
I've been wrong in the past, so don't quote me.

Also, I would have called the person on it, not because you're going after a "rules guru" but because it's the right thing to do under the rules. If that's the only one you know, it's one worth using! lol.

Now, if you beat him 4 & 3 using a starter set of 7 clubs, the pie is already in his eye.

Fally
aka Scott

[AAA]

I was under the impression with this rule that as long as you realize, as the person WITH the 15th club, that if you declare one of the 15 clubs unplayable at that point, and do not use that club for the entire match, it's basically an umbrella.
I've been wrong in the past, so don't quote me.

That's what the rule quoted above says

Any club or clubs carried or used in breach of Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4 must be declared out of play by the player to his opponent in match play immediately upon discovery that a breach has occurred. The player must not use the club or clubs for the remainder of the stipulated round.

[pvs1313]

yes, but you would still be dinged for the appropriate strokes, or holes lost, penalty, even if you delcale yourslef.

golf is all about honesty, you should have claled hium on it, just to ensure the match is honest. in truth, he should have called himslef on it .

That's what the rule quoted above says

Any club or clubs carried or used in breach of Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4 must be declared out of play by the player to his opponent in match play immediately upon discovery that a breach has occurred. The player must not use the club or clubs for the remainder of the stipulated round.

[AAA]

[quote=pvs1313;176913]yes, but you would still be dinged for the appropriate strokes, or holes lost, penalty, even if you delcale yourslef.
quote]

The Rule goes on

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 4-4a or b,
REGARDLESS OF NUMBER OF EXCESS CLUBS CARRIED:
Match play ;— At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole for each hole at which a breach occurred. Maximum deduction per round: Two holes.
Stroke play — Two strokes for each hole at which any breach occurred; maximum penalty per round: Four strokes.

[pvs1313]

yes those are the penalties,

[AAA]

yes those are the penalties,

I'm not sure what your original point was. Your post seemed to suggest that the two stroke penalty per hole kept on 'til the end of the round. Which is why I added the rest to show it doesn't.

[Fallys0820]

I think the point that was trying to be made was that it's ridiculous that if you call your 15th club on the first tee before anyone plays their first shot that you could still suffer 4 stroke or 2 hole penalty. Atleast that's the inference I'm deriving from this thread so far.

The literal reading of your red highlighted post suggests that if no hole played, no foul created. That's not the feel of the thread but that's the point I was originally trying to make.

So, am I right to say if you catch this walking up to the tee, you could save yourself the penalty BEFORE a hole is played? As stated before, the game is about honesty and I can't see being penalized for not wanting to run back to the parking lot to drop off a car, as long as you don't play that designated club.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Fally
aka Scott

[supercustom]

Interesting corollary - if the breach is discovered just before the first stroke at the first tee, is there no penatly, since the rule stipulates penalty to be applied to the hole(s) played in breach - ie. the hole(s) played before the breach is discovered? In other words, when is play on the first hole of the round considered to begin, when the first member of the party tees off? Or is a player not considered to have begun to play the hole until he tees off himself? This could make a difference in the penalty applied under this rule.

[AAA]

The round does not start for a player until he has made his first stroke.

However, he cannot declare it out of play before he tees off and then leave it in his bag. He must leave it behind Dec 4-4c/1

[pvs1313]

nope,

my piont was that you must call the penalty on yourself, and it woudl stil be apenalty, you can not just say i had these clubs in bag, but did not use them so no penalty.

that is what was suggested from previous post,

I'm not sure what your original point was. Your post seemed to suggest that the two stroke penalty per hole kept on 'til the end of the round. Which is why I added the rest to show it doesn't.

[pvs1313]

yes exactly,

no need to run back, holld up others extra, if round hasne't started you can state your extra club will not be used and it is just in yoru bag because....whatever... but if in a competition, you would need to leave it behind!!!

but yuou must be sure NEVER to use it in the round, other wise you will receive the full penalty!

I think the point that was trying to be made was that it's ridiculous that if you call your 15th club on the first tee before anyone plays their first shot that you could still suffer 4 stroke or 2 hole penalty. Atleast that's the inference I'm deriving from this thread so far.

The literal reading of your red highlighted post suggests that if no hole played, no foul created. That's not the feel of the thread but that's the point I was originally trying to make.

So, am I right to say if you catch this walking up to the tee, you could save yourself the penalty BEFORE a hole is played? As stated before, the game is about honesty and I can't see being penalized for not wanting to run back to the parking lot to drop off a car, as long as you don't play that designated club.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

Fally
aka Scott

[AAA]

fallys0820

[quote=pvs1313;177130]
no need to run back, holld up others extra, if round hasne't started you can state your extra club will not be used and it is just in yoru bag because....whatever... but if in a competition, you would need to leave it behind!!!
quote]

The danger in not playing to the rules 'sometimes' is that you get out of the habit. If you forget in a competition and don't correct the error, after taking the penalty you weren't expecting, there is a chance you will get a DQ. Learn the rules and play by them. It is cumulative, the more you play by them, the more you learn.


4-4c/1 Excess Club Declared Out of Play Before Round and Placed on Floor of Golf Cart


Q. Before the start of a round, a player discovers that there are 15 clubs in his golf bag. He declares one of the clubs out of play, removes it from his bag, places it on the floor of his golf cart and begins the round. Is the player subject to penalty?

A. Yes, for starting the round with more than 14 clubs. Rule 4-4c has to do with declaring an excess club out of play on discovery of a breach after a round has started. There is nothing in the Rules to permit carrying, during a round, an excess club declared out of play before the round.

[pvs1313]

yes, but i believe that the point being made, and one i also made, was that if playing with your FC in a NON competitive round, it is a waste of time ( not yours, everyone elses) to have to return to your car or clubhouse to store the extra club.

rules are rrules, yes, but you also jhave to take into account the circumstances and ebsure you do not unfairly hinder or disrupt all your fellow players!