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05-22-2006 11:41 PM #1
Tree stump - relief, or no relief?
I didn't question it when it came up this afternoon but it doesn't seem right so I want to seek confirmation.
It was clear the guy was going to be out of the hole anyway due to the way he started off (we were in a match play event) so I didn't say anything, but he said that his ball was near a tree stump that affected his ball striking ability. The stump was from a tree that was once part of a forest for the lack of a better term. He wasn't near a fairway and he was either in the rough bordering the tree line or just inside the tree line. He took a club's length free relief and I didn't quite catch the grounds upon which he said he could do so.
To my knowledge, it wasn't marked ground under repair, there were no local rules stating one would be entitled to free relief and had the whole tree been there in the first place, he would have been SOL anyway.
I believe he violated a rule by moving his ball or not playing from place where the ball last sat. That would result in automatic loss of hole in match play or at least one stroke in stroke play.
What's the real answer? Thanks!
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05-22-2006 11:47 PM #2
Excerpt from Golf Digest:
Whether up against a rock, resting on a tree stump, or sitting on the edge of the Grand Canyon, some balls cannot be played. When this occurs, you are allowed - under penalty of one stroke - to proceed according to one of these options:
-Replay the previous shot
-Drop within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but no closer to the hole.
-Drop a ball anywhere on an imaginary line behind where the ball came to rest. The line is drawn from the hole through the point where the ball lay.
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05-22-2006 11:52 PM #3
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I agree with SIMMER. He could have taken a drop under penalty of 1 stroke. SInce he did not, in Match play it is loss of hole. Now if it was not a stuump, but rather a tree trunk and branches that was piled for removal, that I think is a free lift.
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05-22-2006 11:55 PM #4Originally Posted by mmason31
By moving his ball and gaining a significant advantange, he would likely be disqualified
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05-23-2006 07:57 AM #5
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Originally Posted by Gary Hill
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05-23-2006 09:21 AM #6
Just a quick clarification for me.
I recently had a tree stump that interferred with my follow thru. The stump was just in the beginning of the first cut of rough.
This was a solitary tree as the nearest trees were 100 feet to the left of me (a forest).
I assumed I had to play it, so I chopped 10 yards to my left. Correct?"Chicks dig me, because I rarely wear underwear and when I do it's usually something unusual"
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05-23-2006 09:28 AM #7Originally Posted by sharkhark
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05-23-2006 10:47 AM #8
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I am happy to hear that he had already lost the hole because it could have been a bad situation. You should definitely bring it back up to him just for clarification and you will also send the message that he must follow and discuss any interpretation of the rules prior to hitting his ball.
Lefty Lucas
I am abidextrous, I once golfed right-handed and now I shoot left-handed just as badly!
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05-23-2006 10:58 AM #9
In situations like that, ask him to play two balls. One with the relief, one without... If he plays the same score with both then the ruling doesn't matter. Otherwise, get a ruling from the committee (relief or not, penalty strokes or not) and mark the appropriate score on the scorecard.
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05-23-2006 11:12 AM #10Originally Posted by LongBallHitter
On a similar note, I noticed that some trees "at the bend" on that same hole are staked and held up with metal wire. The trees must be 20-30 feet high. Normally courses will have local rules that give free relief from staked trees that are usually less than two clubs (or whatever) in height. In this case, I presume, the correct method is to play as it lies?
Thanks!
Mike
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05-23-2006 11:59 AM #11Originally Posted by BC MIST
1-2 Exerting Influence on Ball
A player or caddie must not take any action to influence the position or the movement of a ball except in accordance with the Rules.
(Removal of movable obstruction — see Rule 24-1.)
Penalty for Breach of Rule 1-2:
Match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.
Note: In the case of a serious breach of Rule 1-2, the Committee may impose a penalty of disqualification.
When applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.
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05-23-2006 04:46 PM #121dash1GuestOriginally Posted by LongBallHitter
Please permit me to clarify your statement.
The playing of a second ball under Rule 3-3 MUST be reported to the Committee - even if the player should make the same score with both balls. The penalty for failure to report is disqualification.
So, get a ruling from the Committee no matter what you score with both balls.
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.Last edited by 1dash1; 05-23-2006 at 09:25 PM.
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05-23-2006 04:53 PM #131dash1Guest
Re: Tree Stumps
Sorry, I can't remember the original author, but the saying goes something like this:
"Tree stumps are just short trees."
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05-23-2006 07:24 PM #14
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tree vs stump
If I am reading and understanding this post.
No releif is given for the stump
BUT one gets relief from the parts of the tree that were felled ( ie enie at the masters a couple years back when he hit into the bush)
How come the parts of the tree on the ground one gets relief but not the stumpthat still has to be removed
dave
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05-23-2006 08:19 PM #15Originally Posted by hacker1
The stump is fixed.
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05-23-2006 08:23 PM #16Originally Posted by BC MIST
Example: Moving your ball from just inside a bunker to just outside a bunker.
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05-23-2006 08:27 PM #17Originally Posted by LobWedge
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05-23-2006 08:41 PM #181dash1Guest
Hacker1:
Here's the way I rationalize it:- How difficult WAS it to play around the tree before it fell?
- How difficult IS it to play around the stump?
- Given that it is much easier to play around the stump now than it used to be to play around the tree, why should the player get any relief from the stump?
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05-23-2006 09:08 PM #19
Hey, a tree is as natural as grass on a golf course, a stump is still a tree but with a crew cut, All trees have roots so they're natural too. If you think your going to hurt yourself during a swing because of a stump,root or tree, take a stroke and play the ball from another location according to the rules. It really is that simple Just think birdie on the next hole instead of broken wrist or hand. When you start moving balls to a better location be it 1 inch or 72 inches just so there's no penalty for where you hit it, your on a slippery slope to ruining your handicap and game. It's tempting but really who are you really fooling when you have to play with that lower handicap when money or championships are on the line. My advice is let that other golfer know that he cannot move his ball at his whim and be as friendly as possible while telling him.
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05-23-2006 10:03 PM #20Originally Posted by Gary Hill
Can you please explain how this rule doesn't apply, and which rule would apply in this case. ThanksWhen applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.
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05-23-2006 10:35 PM #21
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Thanks for the clearing that up in regards to loose impediments
like someone posted landing behind a stump is better that landing behaind a tree
thanks dave
as a side garry this prob belongs in another post
but what is the ruling regarding enviromental hazzards
when playing with my buddies we all agree that if your ball goes into an environmental hazzard you cannot play it from there
we are not sure what is the what is the ruling for going in and geting your ball
in a friendly game we go and look for it but do not play it
but what is the actual ruling regarding walking in an environmental harrard
thanks
dave
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05-24-2006 12:21 AM #221dash1Guest
Hacker1:
In my opinion, the Rules of Golf apply to playing the game, not to retrieving the ball.
Like a ball lying out of bounds in someone's private garden, you break no rule of golf by retrieving the ball - but you break public law and are subject to legal penalties. You are probably also breaking club rules and subject to punishment by club policy (fines, suspension, expulsion, etc.).
Note: Theoretically, the Committee could invoke its general powers under Rule 33-7 to punish players. However, I'd suggest that does little to fix the problem of having upset neighbors or wakening the wrath of EPA investigators. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Instead, I'd suggest letting the initial "wrong" stand (not disqualify violators under Rule 33-7) and issue an amendment to the Conditions of Competition (warning players that violators will be removed from competition).
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05-24-2006 09:48 PM #23
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Originally Posted by mmason31
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05-24-2006 09:53 PM #24Originally Posted by LobWedge
Rule 18-2a states that if the player lifts or moves his ball except as provided in the Rules, he incurs a penalty stroke and the ball shall be replaced. There is no provision in the Rules to move your ball because of interference by a tree stump. Therefore, the player has breached Rule 18-2a.
The player did not replace the ball as required and, as a result, he has played from a wrong place under Rule 20-7 and incurs and additional penalty of one stroke.
However, Note 1 to Rule 20-7 states that if a player has gained a significant advantage (moving his ball away from "a tree stump that affected his ball striking ability" to a place where he had an unhindered swing), then he has committed a serious breach of this Rule and a disqualification penatly would be justified.
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05-24-2006 10:05 PM #25Originally Posted by Frewcrew
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05-25-2006 11:22 AM #26
Perfect. Thanks Gary.
Originally Posted by Gary HillWhen applying the Rules, you follow them line by line. You don't read between them.
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05-25-2006 12:31 PM #27Originally Posted by Gary Hill
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05-25-2006 01:11 PM #28Originally Posted by Gary Hill
Just wondering if that is taking "Tiger's rock" a bit too far.
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05-25-2006 02:44 PM #291dash1Guest
Sharkshooter:
Tiger's boulder was not embedded, nor was it fixed or growing. It was merely big. Size doesn't matter when considering loose impediments.
The tree stump is fixed. (Arguably, you could call it embedded.) And, depending on how freshly cut it was, it may still be growing. Consequently, it is not a loose impediment, it is part of the course. Remove it and you've improved the area of intended swing, a breach of Rule 13-2.
Definition:
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...oseImpediments
Rule 13-2:
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...le13.html#13-2
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05-25-2006 03:23 PM #30
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