My theory...

[kewarken]

I came up with a new theory about why golf is (for me at least) so hard.

Feedback.

When I swing really hard, I feel like I'm swinging hard and the ball should go a long way. It doesn't of course but it _feels_ like it should. When I swing in a smooth, relaxed way, it doesn't feel like I've done anything at all even though the ball sails beautifully. I think that visual feedback isn't enough for me....it just doesn't feel like I'm doing anything. Doing things that are hard should FEEL hard....not easy. Very annoying.

I'm just a brute force, chopping the wood kind of guy and I'm having a really hard time throttling back and letting it flow. I got some really good results at the range today when I tried to slow down the start of my downswing, letting my arms fall rather than pushing them but I get a few good shots and then I try to get, "just a little bit more." That's what kills me...when I hit it far, I think, "oh, that was easy," and then try to swing a little harder to go a little farther and the next thing you know, I'm grunting and sweating and getting blisters again. Man I hate this game sometimes. I don't know what insight or revelation I need to get in order to finally feel the swing is repeatable and consistent. Smooth acceleration seems to work really well but it's such a fine line between that and overswinging.

cheers,

Kris

[jvincent]

Sounds like you'd be a good candidate for the "Tour Tempo" CD since it trys to train you to swing with a certain rythm.

[Andru]

Other than power lifting athletics is based on speeed, timing and rythm. A good hitter in baseball is smooth. Yes they're moving quickly but they're not trying to hit it hard.

Golf is the same. The more tense you are the slower you'll move. Try running with your legs flexed. You'll be very slow in order for your body to move quickly it has to be loose. You'll feel like you're moving fast because you're trying so hard but you're not.

The pros move fast not hard. Hard to grasp. I'm still fighting it myself. When you get it. People will start saying to you "it looks like you're not even trying".

Then you know you've got it.

[BC MIST]

I came up with a new theory about why golf is (for me at least) so hard.

Feedback.

When I swing really hard, I feel like I'm swinging hard and the ball should go a long way. It doesn't of course but it _feels_ like it should. When I swing in a smooth, relaxed way, it doesn't feel like I've done anything at all even though the ball sails beautifully. I think that visual feedback isn't enough for me....it just doesn't feel like I'm doing anything. Doing things that are hard should FEEL hard....not easy. Very annoying.

I'm just a brute force, chopping the wood kind of guy and I'm having a really hard time throttling back and letting it flow. I got some really good results at the range today when I tried to slow down the start of my downswing, letting my arms fall rather than pushing them but I get a few good shots and then I try to get, "just a little bit more." That's what kills me...when I hit it far, I think, "oh, that was easy," and then try to swing a little harder to go a little farther and the next thing you know, I'm grunting and sweating and getting blisters again. Man I hate this game sometimes. I don't know what insight or revelation I need to get in order to finally feel the swing is repeatable and consistent. Smooth acceleration seems to work really well but it's such a fine line between that and overswinging.

cheers,

Kris

Your current HABIT is to swing hard and this causes inconsistent results. From your experimentation, a smoother swing causes consistent results and probably greater distance and accuracy. Therefore, you have to replace one habit with another and this will take some time becuase you have taught your subconscious to swing hard and when you don't think about your swing, swinging hard is what you do.

So, in order for a smooth swing to become part of your subconscious, you have to work very hard in practice, to swing smoothly. If you do, the smooth swing will eventually become the subconscious one, and you will be a much better golfer because of it. How long will this take? I am sure that you have heard that if you repeat something correctly 50 times a day for 21 days, that it will beocme a habit. This is nonsense. "IT TAKES AS LONG AS IT TAKES." This may be 8 days for you, 145 days for me or two years for Tiger Woods. We are all so incredibly different that we all habitualize an athletic motion in widely varying time frames.

I would suggest that you make 4 swings working CONSCIOUSLY on swinging smoothly followed by 4 swings thinking about the cart girl's white top(or something other than swinging smoothly) Repeat this 4 times, a total of 32 balls, and then do something else, ie., chip a few balls or whatever. Repeat this 32 ball routine as many times as you can and you will soon be swinging smoothly on all shots, subconsciously.

There are reasons for doing it this way are too lengthy to explain here, but this works and I do speak from experience. Your longest and straightest shots will eventually occur with a swing that feels effortless.

[el tigre]

Sounds like you'd be a good candidate for the "Tour Tempo" CD since it trys to train you to swing with a certain rythm.

Actually, I have found that the "Tour Tempo" CD does exactly the opposite to what kewarken is looking for. It is based on the premise that the tempo for most golfers is too slow, and by speeding up their tempo (to the 3:1 ratios that the pros use) they will not be able to clutter their mind with swing thoughts.

While the 3:1 ratio concept may have some merit, IMHO the CD's attempt to pigeonhole all amateur golfers into one of the 3 tempos (21/7, 24/8 or 27/9) that are most common on the pro tours is its downfall. Even at the pro level the 3:1 ratio is only an approximation, and most amateurs do not have the same athletic ability of a golf pro.

[jvincent]

I didn't realize that the Tour Tempo sped up most people's tempo.

I actually use an approach like BCMist's recommendation, i.e. try to get into a habit for your swing. If you can make your swing automatic, then you are in good shape.

One thing that I find works really well is to hit a combination of driver and 3 or 4 different irons at the range alternating driver, iron, driver, iron, etc. This prevents you from getting into a driver rut and if you follow a swing routine between every club (pick target, set up stance, etc) it works really well. Just the act of going back to the bag to change clubs helps.

In my case, after spend many years trying to change my swing to be more upright, etc. I have gone back this year to my "old" one plane, flatter swing from when I was a teenager and hit the ball really well. I've been working on just swinging naturally with a very simple swing key and the results have been really good so far.

I started the year at 11.6 and am currently at 7.9. I hope I have not jinxed myself.

[kewarken]

Thanks for the tips everyone. Funny game golf. After the range yesterday I was (once again) almost ready to either get a lesson or quit the game. Instead I went and played early this morning.

I actually played really well. I was relaxed and swinging easy, ball was flying straight and far. My putting is all that kept me from scoring since I had more 3 and 4 putts than 1 and 2 but my ball striking and short game was great. Lots of greens in regulation. Found the FUN again. I think I lost it for a while, taking the game too seriously. It was a beautiful day without too many people. Hooked up with a friendly couple and just had a very enjoyable game.

I think maybe too much practice is bad, especially if it becomes sloppy and undirected. I like the idea of alternating clubs. I've done that before - pretend it's a hole and pick targets and such. It's just a game right? I've got to stop sucking the fun out of it for myself.

cheers,

Kris

[jvincent]

I think maybe too much practice is bad, especially if it becomes sloppy and undirected.

.....

I've got to stop sucking the fun out of it for myself.

Two nails hammered directly on the head.

[Chieflongtee]

Your current HABIT is to swing hard and this causes inconsistent results. From your experimentation, a smoother swing causes consistent results and probably greater distance and accuracy. Therefore, you have to replace one habit with another and this will take some time becuase you have taught your subconscious to swing hard and when you don't think about your swing, swinging hard is what you do.

So, in order for a smooth swing to become part of your subconscious, you have to work very hard in practice, to swing smoothly. If you do, the smooth swing will eventually become the subconscious one, and you will be a much better golfer because of it. How long will this take? I am sure that you have heard that if you repeat something correctly 50 times a day for 21 days, that it will beocme a habit. This is nonsense. "IT TAKES AS LONG AS IT TAKES." This may be 8 days for you, 145 days for me or two years for Tiger Woods. We are all so incredibly different that we all habitualize an athletic motion in widely varying time frames.

I would suggest that you make 4 swings working CONSCIOUSLY on swinging smoothly followed by 4 swings thinking about the cart girl's white top(or something other than swinging smoothly) Repeat this 4 times, a total of 32 balls, and then do something else, ie., chip a few balls or whatever. Repeat this 32 ball routine as many times as you can and you will soon be swinging smoothly on all shots, subconsciously.

There are reasons for doing it this way are too lengthy to explain here, but this works and I do speak from experience. Your longest and straightest shots will eventually occur with a swing that feels effortless.

Interesting concept: The 21 day rule comes from a plastic surgeon who uses to notice big changes in people's attitude when he changed some of their physical aspects.
Read the book myself. Very interesting imo.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

When I first started golf there used to be an excellent player who gave me the following advice when practicing atr the range. Hit driver hit 7 iron(pretty much the same advice posted above by Jvincent) . I should have listened to him as it's a great way to develop a smooth tempo and not trying to kill the ball with the driver. There is something else I'd like to try. Say I am 80 yds from the flag and need to hold back I will swing it 3/4 to get the right distance. If the same technique could be followed with the driver for a whille I would tend to believe that a good habit would be formed.

[Andru]

Or you can get the leadbetter swing setter. Apparently after just 10 minutes of use the golfers experienced outstanding results. I heard it on the golf channel so it must be true.

[LobWedge]

Most tour players swing in the 85-90% effort range which is optimal for producing a free flowing, well timed swing. I've heard it refered to as "easy speed". This is where you should aim to practice at as well.

If you watch guys like Tiger and Phil, especially at events like Battle At The Bridges and the like, the "drive for show" gene kicks in. You'll notice that in these fun events they'll miss a lot more fairways than they do in a regular tour event. That's because they're cranking up the clubhead speed for the fans and getting out of their normal rhythms.

On the other hand if you slow things down too much, it tends to promote deceleration.

You should aim to have swing that is as fast as possible while allowing you to maintain your balance.

[SwingGuru]

I came up with a new theory about why golf is (for me at least) so hard.

Feedback.

When I swing really hard, I feel like I'm swinging hard and the ball should go a long way. It doesn't of course but it _feels_ like it should. When I swing in a smooth, relaxed way, it doesn't feel like I've done anything at all even though the ball sails beautifully. I think that visual feedback isn't enough for me....it just doesn't feel like I'm doing anything. Doing things that are hard should FEEL hard....not easy. Very annoying.

I'm just a brute force, chopping the wood kind of guy and I'm having a really hard time throttling back and letting it flow. I got some really good results at the range today when I tried to slow down the start of my downswing, letting my arms fall rather than pushing them but I get a few good shots and then I try to get, "just a little bit more." That's what kills me...when I hit it far, I think, "oh, that was easy," and then try to swing a little harder to go a little farther and the next thing you know, I'm grunting and sweating and getting blisters again. Man I hate this game sometimes. I don't know what insight or revelation I need to get in order to finally feel the swing is repeatable and consistent. Smooth acceleration seems to work really well but it's such a fine line between that and overswinging.

cheers,



Kris

I'm totally a big fan of swinging at it hard. Tiger does, Ernie does, although not as much as Tiger. The key is having all your ducks lined up in a row - technically. Chances are you are snatching it back with your hands, instead of initiating the movement with the larger muscles of the body. Put some effort into starting the swing back properly with a slight shift of the body and a strong coiling motion and you'll be able to crank away. Don't go against your personality and nature. If your a big strong guy, then focus on your mechanics and soon you'll be harnessing/applying your power properly, and your feelings will match your perceptions of the swing.

[kewarken]

Well, I do sometimes feel like I can really take a cut at it. When I'm firing my hips first it really feels like I'm cranking it. I guess a lot of the problem is having the confidence on the course to really whack it.

I'm 35, 6'2", 215lbs, lift weights and play a lot of sports. It's very disappointing to me that I don't hit it 300 yards every time I tee up.

cheers,

Kris

[SwingGuru]

Well, I do sometimes feel like I can really take a cut at it. When I'm firing my hips first it really feels like I'm cranking it. I guess a lot of the problem is having the confidence on the course to really whack it.

I'm 35, 6'2", 215lbs, lift weights and play a lot of sports. It's very disappointing to me that I don't hit it 300 yards every time I tee up.

cheers,

Kris

I lift weights regularly, and am on the bulkier side for golf at 6'3" 260, but I must tell you that the increased strength training I've done over the years has translated into longer/straighter golf shots. Hogan always talked about hitting it full bore, which for most players is around 90% of maximum. Then all the muscles are used fully, and he thought you could hit it straighter the more fully he went after it. I'd stick with hitting it hard, just work on your mechanics and hit hard properly - with the big muscles versus the smaller ones. It you start 'er back correctly, it is hard to fail. Mechanics, mechanics, mechanics!

[BC MIST]

I'd stick with hitting it hard, just work on your mechanics and hit hard properly - with the big muscles versus the smaller ones. It you start 'er back correctly, it is hard to fail. Mechanics, mechanics, mechanics!
If your a big strong guy, then focus on your mechanics and soon you'll be harnessing/applying your power properly, and your feelings will match your perceptions of the swing.

Are you suggesting that this is how you play, also, that is, focusing on mechanics? Or, do you focus on something else when you actualy play the game?

[SwingGuru]

I don't think of much else except the shot I want to hit, and executing that thought to the fullest. At my stage of the game, there aren't really much I need to focus on during the swing, and I save that mainly for the driving range. On the course it is all business at hand - looking at the lie, checking the wind, selecting a club, selecting a shot, setting up for the shot, visualizing the shot, pulling the trigger. After the shot I monitor how well I executed what I had in my head before the shot, and did I trust my swing, etc.

[BC MIST]

I don't think of much else except the shot I want to hit, and executing that thought to the fullest. At my stage of the game, there aren't really much I need to focus on during the swing, and I save that mainly for the driving range. On the course it is all business at hand - looking at the lie, checking the wind, selecting a club, selecting a shot, setting up for the shot, visualizing the shot, pulling the trigger. After the shot I monitor how well I executed what I had in my head before the shot, and did I trust my swing, etc.

We all know that most golfers hit the ball better on the range than they do when they play on the course. What I am trying to narrow down is what you think about or want your students to think about, while they actually hit the shot on the course.

"I don't think of much else except the shot I want to hit and executing that thought to the fullest. If my thought is 'I want to hit a low fade over the left bunker,' do you want me to think, "I want to hit a low fade over the left bunker," while I am actually swinging the club?

All the mental game buzz words/expression, "commit to the shot, stay in the moment, pull the trigger, trust your swing," and so on, are meaningless junk, IMO. I just want to know very specifically, what actual thoughts should go through a golfer's mind from the time they set the club into the ball until the ball is on its way.

[dlaville]

All the mental game buzz words/expression, "commit to the shot, stay in the moment, pull the trigger, trust your swing," and so on, are meaningless junk, IMO.

Isn't he the same guy who wrote "You did throw around some nice phrases and words however" in reply to one of my post?

[SwingGuru]

We all know that most golfers hit the ball better on the range than they do when they play on the course. What I am trying to narrow down is what you think about or want your students to think about, while they actually hit the shot on the course.

"I don't think of much else except the shot I want to hit and executing that thought to the fullest. If my thought is 'I want to hit a low fade over the left bunker,' do you want me to think, "I want to hit a low fade over the left bunker," while I am actually swinging the club?

All the mental game buzz words/expression, "commit to the shot, stay in the moment, pull the trigger, trust your swing," and so on, are meaningless junk, IMO. I just want to know very specifically, what actual thoughts should go through a golfer's mind from the time they set the club into the ball until the ball is on its way.

If I have to hit a special shot, such as a low fade, I do it ALL in my setup. The swing doesn't change for me. I don't have to hold on to hit fade, or release more to hit draw - the horrors of a student/player who has to rely on that kind of timing to play golf.

I do visualize the shot however. I thnk it helps me to visualize the shot - see it happen in my mind, then set up to hit the shot and just swing. The trickier shots are when you have to hit it less than full to me.

I played with/was teammates with a bunch of guys that are now on the Tour. I've caddied for Cook, Weiskopf, etc. and most of these guys visualize the shot to some extent. They are so good at what they do, that there probably is less going on than most people realize. It is a walk in the park for most of these guys.

[BC MIST]

If I have to hit a special shot, such as a low fade, I do it ALL in my setup. The swing doesn't change for me. I don't have to hold on to hit fade, or release more to hit draw - the horrors of a student/player who has to rely on that kind of timing to play golf.

I do visualize the shot however. I thnk it helps me to visualize the shot - see it happen in my mind, then set up to hit the shot and just swing. The trickier shots are when you have to hit it less than full to me.

I played with/was teammates with a bunch of guys that are now on the Tour. I've caddied for Cook, Weiskopf, etc. and most of these guys visualize the shot to some extent. They are so good at what they do, that there probably is less going on than most people realize. It is a walk in the park for most of these guys.

Visualization is PRESHOT. Setup is PRESHOT.

When you say above "set up to hit the shot and just swing" what are you thinking during the just swing time period? All conscious human beings think. Is there a reason why my simple question is not being answered?

One of the things that I have NEVER heard a teacher teach, is what to think about while the golfer is actually swinging/playing the shot on the course. You instructors spend countless hours teaching golfers how to swing ON THE RANGE, but what do you teach them to think about WHILE THEY ARE SWINGING ON THE COURSE? Could it be that this simple little concept is essential to golfers executing quality golf shots?

If you have caddied for some Touring pros then surely you must have some idea of what they think, when they are swinging.

[SwingGuru]

I think you are asking for things that aren't spoken about. There was a book I think it was titled 'Swing Thoughts' which featured the thoughts that the Tour players who won that week were thinking.

If I remember correctly, there were quite a few mechanical thoughts.

Personally it seems as though I'm aware of certain things as I swing back, but I try to not react to those feelings. As an example of this, if I'm aware that I shut the club down a touch on the backswing, my body will feel it, it travels up to the brain very quickly, but there isn't time to do anything about it. For me I'm better off not thinking of too much during the swing. Thoughts will come, and they will go, but in the second that it takes to go from start (P1) to impact (P7), I'm not sure I can do much about those thoughts.

I can however think/feel little things to start off the swing. That was what Hogan described as the purpose of the waggle. I understand that it is preshot, but to Hogan, it was part of the actual shot, not just a rehearsal, but a vital part of the actual shot.

[dlaville]

I played with/was teammates with a bunch of guys that are now on the Tour. I've caddied for Cook, Weiskopf, etc. and most of these guys visualize the shot to some extent.

You also told us you taught at Grand Cypress than turned around the next day and told us you didn't. You told us you co-wrote Dr. Mann's book and CD's and taught at two of his schools. Dr. Mann informed me through an email he has never heard of you.

[Kilroy]

I'd take a lot of what SwingGuru claims with a grain of salt at this point. He does not even identify himself or list his teaching credentials on his own site.

I too am curious about his claims, since he did not respond in the previous thread where you mentioned that Dr Mann had no idea who this fella was.

I hope that SwingGuru will clear this up, since misrepresentation is not cool.