COVID-19 and golf

[SnazzyD]

OK.....I'm probably going to get flamed real bad for this contribution to the discussion, but here goes:

Why is nobody in the media asking some basic questions instead of fanning the flames of fear 24/7? Here's a few that I'd like to see discussed:

1. How does Covid-19 compare to other recent outbreaks on a global scale?
2. What is the average age of those who die from it?
3. What is the mortality rate for those who are neither seniors nor have pre-existing conditions?
4. Why are deaths attributed to pneumonia sharply down this year?
5. Why are hospitals using Covid-19 'diagnosis codes' when patients die of unrelated issues?
6. Within any region, how do the total number of deaths attributed to Covid-19, flu or other contagious ailments compare to recent years?

Here are a few of the documented facts that nobody ever talks about:

• Around 90,000 Italians died from the flu and related symptoms just 2 years ago, mostly among the elderly who are the most prone to succumbing. Even if you accept the official Covid-19 numbers, their official death total right now is just under 20,000 (source: John Hopkins tracker)

• Influenza had a huge impact on the US (sorry, the only reliable stats I could find) with data from last year highlighting how risky the flu season ALWAYS is for the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions.

2018 2019 CDC flu stats.jpg
(source: CDC)

The numbers are even higher during the 2017-2018 flu season which resulted in 60,000-70,000 deaths (source: CDC)

• When reporting breathlessly about the mortality rates, the media/experts work with a numerator that is clearly being inflated, and a denominator which is a huge unknown but is almost surely being vastly under-reported. When the H1N1 "swine flu" struck the world in 2009, it was estimated to have infected between 43-90 million Americans and resulted in 9,000-18,000 deaths (source: CDC) and as many as half a million worldwide.

Did we shutter the global economy and suspend most civil liberties as a result?

Of course not! So what the heck is going on now?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't like being manipulated or lied to - if I wanted any of that, I'd ask my teenager why he was home late from school (now a distant memory). I will continue to follow the guidelines to keep my family and others safe, and am making the most of our "mandatory bonding time" (which has been great, to be honest) but.....something's not right here, and I can feel it in my creaky bones.

I don't own (or rent) a tinfoil hat, so feel free to rebut but counter with facts to the contrary (I'd love to be wrong here) instead of the usual ad hominem when tightly held world views are challenged.

My Dad (recently RIP) always drilled into us the importance of critical thinking when watching the nightly news or reading any statistics.....I can hear him clearly now.

[Johnyc]

OK.....I'm probably going to get flamed real bad for this contribution to the discussion, but here goes:

Why is nobody in the media asking some basic questions instead of fanning the flames of fear 24/7? Here's a few that I'd like to see discussed:

1. How does Covid-19 compare to other recent outbreaks on a global scale?
2. What is the average age of those who die from it?
3. What is the mortality rate for those who are neither seniors nor have pre-existing conditions?
4. Why are deaths attributed to pneumonia sharply down this year?
5. Why are hospitals using Covid-19 'diagnosis codes' when patients die of unrelated issues?
6. Within any region, how do the total number of deaths attributed to Covid-19, flu or other contagious ailments compare to recent years?

Here are a few of the documented facts that nobody ever talks about:

• Around 90,000 Italians died from the flu and related symptoms just 2 years ago, mostly among the elderly who are the most prone to succumbing. Even if you accept the official Covid-19 numbers, their official death total right now is just under 20,000 (source: John Hopkins tracker)

• Influenza had a huge impact on the US (sorry, the only reliable stats I could find) with data from last year highlighting how risky the flu season ALWAYS is for the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions.

Attachment 62385
(source: CDC)

The numbers are even higher during the 2017-2018 flu season which resulted in 60,000-70,000 deaths (source: CDC)

• When reporting breathlessly about the mortality rates, the media/experts work with a numerator that is clearly being inflated, and a denominator which is a huge unknown but is almost surely being vastly under-reported. When the H1N1 "swine flu" struck the world in 2009, it was estimated to have infected between 43-90 million Americans and resulted in 9,000-18,000 deaths (source: CDC) and as many as half a million worldwide.

Did we shutter the global economy and suspend most civil liberties as a result?

Of course not! So what the heck is going on now?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't like being manipulated or lied to - if I wanted any of that, I'd ask my teenager why he was home late from school (now a distant memory). I will continue to follow the guidelines to keep my family and others safe, and am making the most of our "mandatory bonding time" (which has been great, to be honest) but.....something's not right here, and I can feel it in my creaky bones.

I don't own (or rent) a tinfoil hat, so feel free to rebut but counter with facts to the contrary (I'd love to be wrong here) instead of the usual ad hominem when tightly held world views are challenged.

My Dad (recently RIP) always drilled into us the importance of critical thinking when watching the nightly news or reading any statistics.....I can hear him clearly now.

A couple points; if you have the flu you almost certainly know it. You stay at home, generally, and you get over it. One of the biggest issues with the covid-19 virus is that you may not know you have it as the symptoms can be very mild. This, IMO, is one of the leading reasons why it is so dangerous.

But looking at this through a health care lens is what made (makes) this so dangerous. Because of the respiratory implications it causes such a significant strain on resources that we simply don’t have in place. Ottawa has approximately 120 ICU beds with the pumps and vents needed. The fear was if there was a sudden wave of incoming patients they simply could not have provided care for everyone. So the physical distancing was (is) a must to help avoid this surge that would stretch resources beyond capacity. If not for the physical distancing and lock downs this could have been 10-100 times worse. It is a major commitment to essentially shelter in place but this is what was required otherwise it would have been far, far worse then a seasonal flu. As it stands many lives were saved and everyone will be back on the local golf courses sometime next month. My course wouldn’t have opened for another couple weeks anyway so we are only going to be a couple weeks behind as it is. No big deal on that front. And when safe to do so I will do my part to help the economy by spending all my discretionary income locally.

Anyway, just my two cents.

[justsomeguy]

OK.....I'm probably going to get flamed real bad for this contribution to the discussion, but here goes:

Why is nobody in the media asking some basic questions instead of fanning the flames of fear 24/7? Here's a few that I'd like to see discussed:
How does Covid-19 compare to other recent outbreaks on a global scale?

1. It is much worse. Over 100,000 deaths in about 2 months.
   

2. What is the average age of those who die from it?

[Gobble_It]

There is some hope for golf soon


https://www.vicnews.com/sports/golf-...fety-measures/


Ford is going to extend the state of emergency for another 28 days...That will take us to second week of May. Most courses around Ottawa don't open until mid or end of May.. Still hoping for a full season !

[Michael]

There is some hope for golf soon


https://www.vicnews.com/sports/golf-...fety-measures/


Ford is going to extend the state of emergency for another 28 days...That will take us to second week of May. Most courses around Ottawa don't open until mid or end of May.. Still hoping for a full season !

Believe that will take us to 12 May when legislature is scheduled to return.

[BC MIST]

Here are a few of the documented facts that nobody ever talks about:

• Around 90,000 Italians died from the flu and related symptoms just 2 years ago, mostly among the elderly who are the most prone to succumbing. Even if you accept the official Covid-19 numbers, their official death total right now is just under 20,000 (source: John Hopkins tracker)

I have not read all the posts so this simple point may have been made previously. IMO, the NUMBER of deaths is irrelevant, but the RATE of death is. If the death rate from the mostly preventable flu is.1% and using some current COVID-19 statistics, the latter has a world wide death rate of 6.4%. Simply means that one has 64 times the chance of dying from this virus than the flu at any age and obviously much greater than that if your my age.

Plus, there is currently no cure or vaccine.

[SnazzyD]

I have not read all the posts so this simple point may have been made previously. IMO, the NUMBER of deaths is irrelevant, but the RATE of death is. If the death rate from the mostly preventable flu is.1% and using some current COVID-19 statistics, the latter has a world wide death rate of 6.4%. Simply means that one has 64 times the chance of dying from this virus than the flu at any age and obviously much greater than that if your my age.

Plus, there is currently no cure or vaccine.

I agree. The mortality rate is key.....but the numbers we are being shown are grossly inaccurate and misleading, for several reasons:

1. the number of deaths reports as being "Covid-19 related" is being inflated (A)
2. the number of confirmed cases is way, way under-reported (B)
3. the mortality rate isn't being broken down by age/health conditions

A/B is the mortality rate you're referring to, and for the reasons above we can safely assume the true number is nowhere near 6.4%. And if you broke down a more realistic figure for mortality rate by age and health condition, you would see that the general population (younger, healthy) are at very little risk, while older people and those with pre-existing conditions are at a very high risk, just as they are with the flu every year.

The other thing they aren't talking about is the impact this is having on mental health, physical well-being and the many kinds of fallout occurring when people's livelihoods are destroyed.

The real numbers don't support the over-reaction. The damage being done to the world economy and societies everywhere is orders of magnitude greater than the disease itself.

It concerns me that so few people are questioning any of this...

[justsomeguy]

It concerns me that so few people are questioning any of this...

I concerns me that you are stating so many things as FACT without a shred of evidence.

There is absolutely no evidence that COVID-19 deaths are inflated - in fact there is considerable evidence of the exact opposite. The death toll in China is so ridiculously low (especially since it started there), that the only question is whether the actual numbers are 4, 6 or 10 times what they are reporting.

I'm not sure what your point is about under-reporting of actual cases either. Do you think that 50,000 cases is somehow better? You get sick, and you either recover or you die - the other numbers are not that important.

As for your last point, well I guess your ageism is showing. Old people matter too.

Its not fun staying at home, not playing golf and having everything closed - I get that. But implying that young people should be able to do whatever they want because even if they get this highly-contagious, deadly disease with no known cure or vaccine they (probably) won't die from it - well that's just being selfish and I don't get that. So stop spouting conspiracy theories and suck it up for a few more weeks. You'll manage - and us geezers will thank you for it.

[Jasonreg]

Its not fun staying at home, not playing golf and having everything closed - I get that. But implying that young people should be able to do whatever they want because even if they get this highly-contagious, deadly disease with no known cure or vaccine they (probably) won't die from it - well that's just being selfish and I don't get that. So stop spouting conspiracy theories and suck it up for a few more weeks. You'll manage - and us geezers will thank you for it.

Well said.

[prophet]

I agree. The mortality rate is key.....but the numbers we are being shown are grossly inaccurate and misleading, for several reasons:

1. the number of deaths reports as being "Covid-19 related" is being inflated (A)
2. the number of confirmed cases is way, way under-reported (B)
3. the mortality rate isn't being broken down by age/health conditions

A/B is the mortality rate you're referring to, and for the reasons above we can safely assume the true number is nowhere near 6.4%. And if you broke down a more realistic figure for mortality rate by age and health condition, you would see that the general population (younger, healthy) are at very little risk, while older people and those with pre-existing conditions are at a very high risk, just as they are with the flu every year.

The other thing they aren't talking about is the impact this is having on mental health, physical well-being and the many kinds of fallout occurring when people's livelihoods are destroyed.

The real numbers don't support the over-reaction. The damage being done to the world economy and societies everywhere is orders of magnitude greater than the disease itself.

It concerns me that so few people are questioning any of this...

Last year if an 80 year old man would have died of pneumonia nobody would have batted an eyelash probably said he lived a good life this year not so much .when was the last time anyone heard of someone dying of cancer or heart disease?

[Gangrel]

Last year if an 80 year old man would have died of pneumonia nobody would have batted an eyelash probably said he lived a good life this year not so much .when was the last time anyone heard of someone dying of cancer or heart disease?

If you had pneumonia, you wouldn't walk around and play golf, or go out in public unless absolutely necessary.


If you had Covid, you may not know for 14 days, at which point during "normal times" you could infect thousands, who then infect thousands, and increases exponentially.


THAT's the problem.

[BC MIST]

.....you would see that the general population (younger, healthy) are at very little risk, while older people and those with pre-existing conditions are at a very high risk, just as they are with the flu every year.

The other thing they aren't talking about is the impact this is having on mental health, physical well-being and the many kinds of fallout occurring when people's livelihoods are destroyed.

The real numbers don't support the over-reaction. The damage being done to the world economy and societies everywhere is orders of magnitude greater than the disease itself.
.

Is this then a suggestion that we open everything up, which would likely increase the spread of the virus resulting mostly in the deaths of those of us who are older, in order to save the livelihoods and mental health of those that are younger?

[big mac]

I don't think Snazzy was saying lets go hog wild and open things up willy-nilly. I think what he is saying "lets look at the facts" and draw conclusions from them,
Here is one to consider----why place elderly folks in crowded retirement and nursing homes and have inadequate staff and facilities to meet their need ? I don't think this has to be proven---it's been evident BEFORE the outbreak.
Another---why does government allow 8 homes on one acre of land---a 55 story condo on 3 acres and high density living for low income.
I have never even considered a socialist state or anything like that but it sure seems to me that the scales have been tipping in the wrong direction and if it had not been for Tommy Douglas many years ago---where would we be now ?
It's all is a matter of $$$$$$$---it may well be a time for tax restructuring.
Too many questions to be answered here---lets let the experts (doctors---scientists--engineers) not career politicians, bankers and lawyers make the right choices JMHO

[BC MIST]

Here is one to consider----why place elderly folks in crowded retirement and nursing homes and have inadequate staff and facilities to meet their need ?
I have never even considered a socialist state or anything like that but it sure seems to me that the scales have been tipping in the wrong direction and if it had not been for Tommy Douglas many years ago---where would we be now ?
It's all is a matter of $$$$$$$---it may well be a time for tax restructuring.
Too many questions to be answered here---lets let the experts (doctors---scientists--engineers) not career politicians, bankers and lawyers make the right choices JMHO

If the old folks are not in retirement homes or nursing homes, where do you place those who cannot take care of themselves?
Certainly agree with your last statement. Let the doctors decide, in this case, the epidemiologists, the best course of action, not the self serving politicians. And I’m not referring to Dr. Oz or Dr. Phil, who have no problem with letting older people die.

[big mac]

BC---Oh I am not advocating the demise of nursing homes etc.-----I would just love to see the elderly taken care of much better and my "much better" does not depend on the "bottom line". I am 75----think of what our parents and grandparents sacrificed for us---personally I think we could do better. "Dr" Phil and "Dr" Oz------these guys are a joke when it comes to something serious.....all about $$$$ and ratings.