Cast vs Forged irons

[Chieflongtee]

From Callaway. http://www.callawaygolf.com/EN/Feature.aspx?feature=45

Far and away the most popular type of irons, these account for roughly 84% of all iron sets sold. Also known as cavity back irons, investment cast irons represented a quantum leap in golf club design when they first appeared back in the 1970s.

The process of pouring molten metal into a mold gives the designer the ability to manipulate the weight of the clubhead, specifically by moving the majority of the head’s mass to its perimeter. The benefit is a clubhead that is very forgiving and less likely to hook or slice. Two prime examples from Callaway Golf include the new X-18 Irons, the fourth generation of the Company’s wildly popular X-Series Irons, and the venerable Big Bertha Irons – the undisputed leader in game-improvement technology.

Investment cast clubs have been a tremendous boost for the average golfer. Almost overnight, balls struck off-center had a chance of turning out OK, as opposed to a shot struck off-center with older, blade-style designs, which might end up anywhere – and almost always short of the intended destination.


These were the only irons in the game for centuries, and they still enjoy a cachet as a true player’s iron, a fact reflected in their low share of sets sold (approximately 10%).

Forged irons generally fall into one of two design categories: blades (or muscle backs) and cavity backs. They are created just as their name implies: each head is stamped out of a block of soft metal, such as 1020 carbon steel. After being heated and hammered into shape, the club’s markings are imprinted in the raw head, which can then be finished. This clubhead design requires that the weight of the head be spread evenly throughout, not pushed to the perimeter, reducing forgiveness.

Forgings in general – and blades in particular – have advantages and disadvantages versus investment cast irons. One advantage is that forgings provide exceptional feel when a ball is struck on their sweet spot, due to the more consistent grain structure and softer composition of the metal. That’s the good news. The bad news is that, traditionally, that sweet spot has been reduced, making forged irons less forgiving.

That’s no longer true, however, thanks to the advent of cavity back forgings like the new X-Tour Irons from Callaway Golf, the Company’s long-awaited entry into the forged iron market. The X-Tour Irons combine all the proven Callaway Golf investment cast technologies with the feel and playability of a forging.

[jvincent]

F
That’s no longer true, however, thanks to the advent of cavity back forgings like the new X-Tour Irons from Callaway Golf, the Company’s long-awaited entry into the forged iron market. The X-Tour Irons combine all the proven Callaway Golf investment cast technologies with the feel and playability of a forging.[/COLOR]

Typical big company speak. You'd think they invented the concept.

I've been playing forged cavity backs (Golfsmith Tour Cavity Forged) for over 5 years now.

All the feel of forged and the forgiveness of a cavity.

[1972Apex]

Am I missing something here? I actually agree with most of the comments in Cally's promo-speak on this particular subject. Other than I have yet to have the opportuity to hit the X-tour irons. Until then, my opinion on whether these truly are the Hammers of God will have to wait.
But they sound cool.
Forged vs. cast and CBs vs. blades are both tricky subjects. But in general I think Callaway is reflecting the general opinion in their description of the advantages and disadvantages of each type of iron head. And of course they're promoting their own irons... which is fair game in ad copy.

[sharkhark]

I can comment on my experiences over last 2 years:
I used various steel shaft cavity back cast irons until last year.
I then got a set of graphite cavity back forged irons the Mizuno Mx20. I got graphite because i started experiencing constant elbow/forearm pain.
My handicap went from about 90's )26, down to 14 by seasons end. Not all due to Mizuno's but they were forgiving but with feel that taught you to hit the sweetspot.
I have just gotten the Callaway x18 in steel. I am worried that after 3 rounds I am feeling that familiar pain. Outside of that I am overall happy. There is more weight felt with heavier shaft, but I seem to know where it is during swing. I am noticing much less sliding left or right. They work exceptionally well out of rough that previously I wouldn't have hit more than a wedge from. From tight lies, I am not sure yet. I sometimes hit them heavy where the mizuno's picked it clean. My scores so far are similar to last year.
Time will tell if getting something new was smart. I wanted steel for more accuracy than graphite (although the Mx20's were no slouch in that dep't) and more forgiveness on off center hits. We'll see.
p.s. thought I would put my 5 cents in and you guy's got a dollars worth.

[el tigre]

Forgings in general – and blades in particular – have advantages and disadvantages versus investment cast irons. One advantage is that forgings provide exceptional feel when a ball is struck on their sweet spot, due to the more consistent grain structure and softer composition of the metal.

I've brought this up before and I'm still convinced it is true - the "exceptional feel" of a forged club is a myth. While forged irons may indeed have "a more consistent grain structure and softer composition" than cast irons, I do not believe that the human sense of touch is sophisticated enough to tell the differences in the composition of metal at 3-4 feet away from the contact point through a rubber or leather grip while wearing a glove. Studies with tour pros have shown over and over again that they cannot tell the difference between forged and cast clubheads strictly by "feel" alone.

What we can notice is the difference in sound. Forged clubs usually have a softer "click" vs cast clubs on a well-struck shot, and our brains trick us into thinking we can actually feel the difference too. But we can't. If you were wearing ear plugs and tested unknown sets of forged cavity backs vs. cast cavity backs with the same shafts and grips, you could not tell which was which (after all, tour pros couldn't).

Of course we can tell the difference between hitting the sweet spot vs a heel/toe hit by the amount of vibration transmitted up the shaft. We can probably feel the difference between a cavity-back vs a blade for the same reason. And of course we are very sensitive to the "feel" of the shaft because we are actually holding it with our hands. But the metal composition of the clubhead at the other end of the shaft??? No way.

Not that there is anything wrong with absolutely loving the sound your irons make on a well-struck shot. I find great joy in hearing the nice little "tink" my Steelhead Plus woods make on a well-struck shot - and that is reason enough for me to prefer them over others. But what I can "feel" is hitting the sweet spot - not the softness of the metal.

[BC MIST]

What we can notice is the difference in sound.

All of your points are bang on, however, many will not be convinced. Perhaps those with "soft" feeling forged clubs should just hit a Pinaccle or some other "hard" distance ball, and then they may realize just how soft forged clubs aren't.

[Andru]

[i]I've brought this up before and I'm still convinced it is true - the "exceptional feel" of a forged club is a myth.

I've never owned a set of forged cavity backs. It could be that the 'feel' comes from the type of iron. I just got fitted for a set of 690.MB. They are forged and the 'feel' is awesome. It has a butter soft feel even with pinnacles. .

Like I said it could be the blade design instead of the fact that it's forged. One thing I know for sure, it's not the sound. They feel much different than my pings and the callaway X-18's I tried. There was no comparison. They do feel different especially on off centre hits. Like I said that could be a result of the design of the club head not the manufacturing process.

[Kilroy]

I have a set of KZG evolutions - progressive cavity to blade. They are forged. best feeling clubs I have ever had. Don't care why.

[LobWedge]

If you're comparing apples to apples, cb's to cb's and blades to blades, then I do agree that it is virtually impossible to differentiate feel, especially when it comes to tour pros. Let's face it, when you hit it that well consistently, a sweet spot is a sweet spot.

Sound is a different matter. IMO, cast stainless does sound "harder" than forged steel. However, the gap is closing there as well. The main thing that I've noticed that manufacturers are using, including Callaway, Taylor Made and more recently Titleist, is soft urethane-type cavity inserts in their cast irons to, as they say, increase "feel". It sounds so much more sexy than to say that than what they are really meant for, which is to soften the harsh sound of the stainless construction.

With the introduction of more exotic, softer forms of stainless steel (303, 304, etc.), "softness" will be achieved without the worry of rusting from wear and dings, and the traditional "double-nickel-chrome-plated-carbon-steel" forgings will fade into the woodwork (kind of like persimmon did.)

[The Saint]

Up until the early 1970s, forged steel clubheads accounted for more than 90% of all irons made. Now, investment casting has taken over as the primary manufacturing method. Why? Because it costs less and makes it easier to produce the complex shapes of today's perimeter-weighted, cavity-back designs. These clubs are designed to push the weight to the outside edges of the clubhead producing a larger sweetspot. They also make learning the game of golf a lot easier and more fun. But, are they really a good choice for someone that wants to really raise their level of skill?

Forging is not likely to disappear because many golfers believe it offers better feel and ball "workability." It also offers a cleaner look for the tradition-minded golfer. I am an advocate of forgings as I like the look of forged blades, the feel, as well I am rewarded for a well struck ball and scolded for a mis_hits. With cavity backs the golfer can make a fair swing and hit a decent shot and not even know how poor their swing was. With a muscle-back iron, you get what you put into it and learn to slow down and groove a solid swing. So, how do you learn to make solid contact with the ball if you never really know when you've made a bad swing? Perhaps you don't care and there's nothing wrong with that.

Although I've never tried hitting a ball with ear plugs on I'd try it as an experiment. Would I switch my forged clubs for investment cast irons? Hmmmm...If they had a good look at address, produced the same feel and workability, I'd consider it.

Bully for the golf industry though, they have found a way to make golf clubs cheaper while addressing the needs of the average golfer by providing them with cavity-back or perimeter-weighted clubs. Now if only the OEM companys made quality golf clubs for the average golfer. For those off the shelf club owners you'd be shocked if you had your shafts frequency analyzed and the clubs weighted. You'd want to be sure you had large sweet spot as you'd need it to compensate for the inconsistencies in the manufacturers components... IMO.

[Chieflongtee]

With cavity backs the golfer can make a fair swing and hit a decent shot and not even know how poor their swing was. With a muscle-back iron, you get what you put into it and learn to slow down and groove a solid swing. So, how do you learn to make solid contact with the ball if you never really know when you've made a bad swing? Perhaps you don't care and there's nothing wrong with that.

.

I disagree as if I follow your line of thought then I should go back to the old Hickory driver. We all benefited from larger size drivers so why wouldn't we benefit from the best of both worlds i.e forged cavity backs. A well struck ball will feel very sweet with cast clubs as well.

[BC MIST]

With cavity backs the golfer can make a fair swing and hit a decent shot and not even know how poor their swing was. With a muscle-back iron, you get what you put into it and learn to slow down and groove a solid swing. So, how do you learn to make solid contact with the ball if you never really know when you've made a bad swing? Perhaps you don't care and there's nothing wrong with that.
If you make a poor swing with the best club in the world, you will get a poor result. If you make great swing with piece of junk, you will get good results.

The amount of game improvement that the cavity produces over a similarly struck shot with a blade, exits, but is grossly exaggerated by the marketers for obvious reasons. Frankly, we are talking mouse farts, here.

Where the cavity will help a little is if you strike the ball toward the heel of the head. Hit a cavity and a blade out by the toe and then contrast the results - if you can.

[Chieflongtee]

I have seen people skulling ,pulling hooking,duffing ,slicing using cavity backs.

[The Saint]

If you make a poor swing with the best club in the world, you will get a poor result. If you make great swing with piece of junk, you will get good results.

I have golfed with cavity back players and watched some dreadful looking swings and wondered in amazment that the ball landed in this time zone let alone on the fairway. Plain and simple the perimeter weighted club is more forgiving and doesn't need to be the best club in the world. Had they produced the same swing with the best club in the world (which would probably be a forged blade) then I agree and bet my last Pro V that it would not have been pretty.

The amount of game improvement that the cavity produces over a similarly struck shot with a blade, exits, but is grossly exaggerated by the marketers for obvious reasons. Frankly, we are talking mouse farts, here.

I agree if the ball was struck well you will get similar results.. no arguement there.

[The Saint]

I disagree as if I follow your line of thought then I should go back to the old Hickory driver. We all benefited from larger size drivers so why wouldn't we benefit from the best of both worlds i.e forged cavity backs. A well struck ball will feel very sweet with cast clubs as well.

No, that's not my line of thought Andre, and you don't have to go back at all. I'm not saying older is better. I don't think that we all benefit from larger drivers. With a larger head some people will simply hit it over two fairways instead of one, or farther into the bush. I can't say that's a benefit. What they would benefit from is a solid swing grooved by playing forged blades.

[BC MIST]

I have golfed with cavity back players and watched some dreadful looking swings and wondered in amazment that the ball landed in this time zone let alone on the fairway. Plain and simple the perimeter weighted club is more forgiving and doesn't need to be the best club in the world. Had they produced the same swing with the best club in the world (which would probably be a forged blade) then I agree and bet my last Pro V that it would not have been pretty.

I agree if the ball was struck well you will get similar results.. no arguement there.

When CB's first came out there were "studies" comparing the quality of shot that resulted from hitting both CB's and MB's on various places on the face. I do recall being impressed with how little difference there was between bad shots with both kinds of heads. There was a difference and CB's were slightly better, but not by very much. I wish now that I had kept that publication and wonder if there may be something available today that will lend credence to the minimal improvement conclusion to which I have come. Part of my conclusion I suppose is based on my use of both types of heads and frankly, I find no perceptible difference. Some say that you can work the ball better with blades. Explain that to me. If I hit the ball on the sweet spot with either type the ball will fade or draw according to the change in swing, setup, and club face position, and not the weight distribution in the head.

In fact, it may be that cavity back irons irons would result in poorer shots, if the ball is struck off the toe of the club. CB's are usually larger in size(longer) than MB's, so does the formula Torque = Force X length of lever arm, not apply? The longer the head the more torque/twisting that will occur, not less. Sounds like science. Maybe it's pseudo science but it is at least worth considering.

Your description of the bad swingers/CB clubs above, leads me to a different conclusion. If there shots fly true, it is not the clubs but their ability to compensate for backswing errors, on the downswing. Many Tour players have horribly incorrect backswings, Fred Couples and Jim Furyk to name just two, however, because of superior athletic ability, they get the club back on plane and hit good shots on the downswing. If I had either of those two's backswing, I wouldn't break 100. Many average golfers have learned to compensate for poor fundamentals and hit good shots, too. (Bad swing/good results)

Interesting topic.

[el tigre]

What they would benefit from is a solid swing grooved by playing forged blades.

I have heard this statement many times from golfers who choose to play forged blades, but I have never a seen a single piece of evidence (scientific or otherwise) that shows how playing forged blades improves your swing. There is absolutely no reason why forged blades will enable you to "groove" a solid swing any better or worse than cast cavity backs. Only lessons, knowledge, practice and hard work will do that for you.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but there seems to be a general attitude from blade players that if you play cavity backs then you don't care if you hit the sweet spot. Their reasoning seems to be that if you switch to forged blades you will start hitting the sweet spot more often not because it is easier to do with forged blades (it isn't), but because you will suddenly try harder. Frankly, it is kind of arrogant and insulting.

[The Saint]

I have heard this statement many times from golfers who choose to play forged blades, but I have never a seen a single piece of evidence (scientific or otherwise) that shows how playing forged blades improves your swing. There is absolutely no reason why forged blades will enable you to "groove" a solid swing any better or worse than cast cavity backs. Only lessons, knowledge, practice and hard work will do that for you.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but there seems to be a general attitude from blade players that if you play cavity backs then you don't care if you hit the sweet spot. Their reasoning seems to be that if you switch to forged blades you will start hitting the sweet spot more often not because it is easier to do with forged blades (it isn't), but because you will suddenly try harder. Frankly, it is kind of arrogant and insulting.

There has been a bit of tongue and cheek going on here …..If my earlier threads came across as arrogant and insulted you, please accept my apology. My intent was to add another view point certainly not to be insensitive to non-blade players. I like to play the devil’s advocate sometimes and perhaps I was insensitive to your feelings. Personally I don't care what other golfer's play. They could use a garden tool for that matter. I play blades because I like the look, feedback, feel, sound and the result. If there were a set of cavity backs that gave me the same pleasure I would play them. However I can only play one set at a time and my choice of clubs at the present time are forged blades.

I take lessons every year and since playing blades my game has improved. I can't say what of the two is the main contributing factor to my shot accuracy but all I can say is that there has been an improvement. Perhaps the blades is what it took for me to be more serious.. I don't know nor am I going to conclude anything.

If you are a cavity back player it's because you choose to play cavity backs, because that works for you. If by chance you play blades, again it’s a choice. I don’t know where your perception that blade players think "that if you play cavity backs then you don't care if you hit the sweet spot". I think we all want to hit the sweet spot no matter what we play. My point was that CB’s are more forgiving. Again it’s my opinion, please don’t take it personally.

I never started playing blades in the hope that it would improve my swing. My swing improvements are a result of working at it. Initally I was intimidated by blades. I thought they were for scratch golfers, until a friend of mine who is a CPGA teaching pro let me hit his Snake Eyes 600B's. I honestly couldn't believe the contrast between the CB's irons and these. I had this hudge smile on my face. The preception that blades were hard to hit was an over statement. Needless to say I made my own set. Still a bit leary that I wouldn't be able to hit blades I built a combo set with a mix of forged cavity backs and blades (600C/600B's). I loved the results of hitting these and eventially went to a full set of blades. I liked the consistency in the set with their sleek chrome look and thin top line. I really didn't feel a difference between the forgings of the 600C and 600B. I did work at grooving my swing so that I could get more consistent with hitting the sweet spot. So when you say "There is absolutely no reason why forged blades will enable you to "groove" a solid swing any better or worse than cast cavity backs", I have to agree. The clubs don’t enable you to groove a solid swing it’s you who grooves a solid swing. Every club has a sweet spot. But for me personally my swing did improve partially because I received better feeback from blades than I did with my cavity backs. I worked hard at achieving the feel of hitting the sweet spot each time. Anyway this is my experience. I’m not speaking for the general population of blade players. I do welcome you to try my blades if you would like. Perhaps you’ll convert.

[1972Apex]

Well, at the risk of offending those who disagree, I honestly do believe that practicing with forged blades has helped me groove my swing. I also believe there is a big difference in feel between forged clubs and cast. Just my humble opinion after hitting just about every iron known to man over the past few years.

[el tigre]

There has been a bit of tongue and cheek going on here …..If my earlier threads came across as arrogant and insulted you, please accept my apology.

No need to apologize - it was certainly nothing personal. I only take issue with that one particular statement which I have heard over and over and over again that virtually every golfer will improve their ball-striking by playing forged blades. It has no basis in fact or logic that I can discern.

The "logic" that is commonly offered to back up this claim is that a) the sweet spot is smaller and more difficult to find and b) your bad shots are more severely punished and your good shots more greatly rewarded - therefore everyone will somehow develop a Pavlovian response to this and hit good shots more often. Based on what?? Are we all supposed to have the inate ability to hit the sweet spot time and time again but we're just too lazy to apply the right kind of "discipline" to do so. The implication seems to be that you weren't trying hard enough to hit good shots with cavity backs, and so you must need a "bigger carrot and stick" to somehow whip your swing into shape.

It really doesn't matter to me what kind of clubs someone plays. Forged or cast, blades or cavity-back - it is a personal choice. Hey, if you love playing blades then go for it. But there is SOOOO much misinformation and plain bad instruction in golf, and IMHO the "blades make you a better player" line that is handed out as advice on how to improve your golf game is just BS.

[shankenstein]

I recently switched from a cast set of Titleist cavity backs to a forged pro-combo set and have to say that the difference in the lower irons is very noticeable.
The responsiveness and feel at contact gives me a lot more information than the cast irons did. I can feel where the face contacted the ball and it helps me make adjustments according to the response.
I also find it much easier to work the ball with cut shots now as well. I don't know if that's from the iron change or the fact that I'm working overtime on my swing.
The Callaway statement seems to be alot of Marketing hoopla, but I have to agree with most of what they are saying.

[1972Apex]

Are we all supposed to have the inate ability to hit the sweet spot time and time again but we're just too lazy to apply the right kind of "discipline" to do so.[/left]

Yep, that's about right...
I first discovered this about 8 years ago when I got my '72 Hogan blades. To this day whenever I am playing badly I can throw these clubs in the bag and get my swing back within a couple of rounds. If you want to learn how to focus, try shanking these puppies along the ground for the first few holes . Once you shake the sting out of your hands you'll slow down and concentrate more on making solid contact. Trust me, any thoughts of overswinging will disappear and tempo will become your friend. You'll forget about distance and just try to make sure you get the ball in the air. Before you know it you'll be shooting your normal scores again.
And then the fun part... you take that smoother tempo back to your forgiving X-14 Pros and shoot the lights out until you get sloppy again.
Anyway, that's how it works for me. Your results may vary...

[Chieflongtee]

IMO a good player will play well with mb's and cb's. However the higher handicap player is often a ball scooper and need all the help he can get to get it airborne. Better players can play cavity backs because they hit the ball first and in the sweetspot more often than not. I am sure a FAT shot is a lot fatter with a muscle back.

[mccartb]

Cb's are easier to hit, we all know why!

BUT, forged m/b's MAKE you hit it clean, in order to get a GOOD RESULT!
A lot of players get 'fair/good' results with Cb's, and that's OK!

BUT, there are some of us who WANT to work to get a result!
There are some of us who need the feedback of hitting a shot well! (OR NOT!!!)

You can mis-hit a Cb and get away with it, but there is no way you get away with it with a forged m/b!


BOTTOM line-if ya 'love' to hit balls, and you have the ability to 'hit it right-most of the time', forged is the ONLY way to go! ( takes time and effort!)

If ya just want a 'number' ya can talk about, "WITHOUT PUTTING IN THE TIME/EFFORT REQUIRED", get yourself 'cast' irons!


As in everything else, it all boils down to, 'what's it worth to ya...'

[Kona Golf]

With all due respect, I have played quality forged and quality cast both with the same shaft and grips, swing weight etc.. Forged wins Hands Down each and every time! Regardless of the design!

I do agree that all things being equal, whether it is cast or forged the performance will be the same.....The feel will not!

I realize "Feel is Subjective" but when you build your own clubs to exactly the same specs you certainly have a fair comparison.

I agree design differences will affect the performance regardless of the club head. I have two different designs that I play, both forged, and I hit one more consistently than the other, oddly enough, the full cavity is not the favorite!

I also have a set of quality cast built to the same specs. My guess is that my game would be the same if the cast set was in the bag as a daily player. It is not in there because I like the "Feel" of my TS-401's.

Honestly now, if you could offer a quality cast head for $10 or a quality forged head for $10 which do you think would sell quicker, assuming they were the same in all other aspects???


Chris is dead on the money, IMO, it all comes down to cost! Unfortunately, it is the value that the club builder places on the club. Many are afraid to SELL the product and ask for the money.

One last question...

Why are most of the High End, Clubs forged?


I am a firm believer that you should play with a set of clubs that will give you the most enjoyment.
Number one is to be properly fitted and secondly play with the set that that you are most comfortable with. That includes look, feel, performance, etc. Again, just an opinion!

[rezadue]

I have never played forged clubs, or blades for that matter. But I can certainly tell when I have made poor contact with my cast CB R7s. There certainly is a discernable difference in the feel betweek good and bad shots.

Good shot feel like you have barely made contact with a semi soft ball of puddy. That is the best way I can describe it. On the other hand poor contact is follwed by a feeling of hitting something heavy, and there is vibration coming up the shatf.

How is this differnet for those of you who play blades, MBs, or forged clubs?

[Chieflongtee]

Jim. IMO the undercuts are a lot more forgiving than some of the other Raven forged offerings.

[Kona Golf]

They are one of if not the best Chief! You really have to go a long way to beat them, and as you know I have sold a lot of them without a single return!

My point is that the Black Cat DC Tours are as forgiving as the undercuts but FEEL Better (imo)! Performance would be the same, but again, the feel is better with the black cats. The price of the black cats is about 4 times that of the undercuts. That is why I sell a lot of under cuts and few of the Black Cats!

I am playing the TS-401's now. They would wholesale for approx $45 each head. They are more like a titelist or mizuno in design and are less forgiving than the undercuts or the black cats, but I am playing well enough these days that it does not matter. ( I like the thinner top line and reduced offset). I also play a set of SMT Combo cast irons. They are very good and the milled face really bites into the ball. They play as well as any other club, and the milled face makes them better than most. I still like the forged heads better. Do they perform better???

Not likely but I like the feel of forged!

[Wknd_Warrior]

Well I always have to get into these threads, having played the same set of archaic butter knives since the mid 80s. I have swung a few modern clubs but only sparingly for fear of being taken over by the "dark side" so I can't speak a lot to perimeter weighted irons.

I will say I think the unforgiveness of blade style clubs is somewhat overblown. However, you do notice the difference of a slightly off center hit, even if it ends up more or less where you were trying to put it. And you bloody well know when you are striking it pure. I think for the most part, a skroynk is a skroynk no matter what club you've got in your hands.

I don't think there is any doubt that the newer clubs produce better feeling and looking bad shots, but are they really much better results? Probably, how much so? I've had a hard time finding tests on the net showing the pros and cons of each design.

As I understand it the differnces are, speaking of the permiter weighting along

1) more consistent distance control due to a bigger sweetspot. With a blade perfect hits fly farther than off center hits. You get some distance back tho with the undesirable roll forward from the lack of spin on the off center hit...as long as you carry the hazard (see the 4th at Champlain lol)

2) Improved MOI so the off center hit is less likely to rotate the club producing a crooked shot. Cool, now, if I could only keep from hitting those dead solid perfect shots 20 degrees offline.

I've had rounds where I never missed a single iron and shot 90, and had a string of far better rounds where I clunked everything longer than a gap wedge and still hit many greens. I'm sure they new tech has it's advantages but I think they are somewhat exagerated. And what's with that sky scraping ball flight??? There's wind up there!

[Wknd_Warrior]

You can mis-hit a Cb and get away with it, but there is no way you get away with it with a forged m/b!

I disagree, I suppose it's in the definition of his-hit and get away.