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07-03-2005 09:15 PM #1
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Various Rulings - Intersectional Matches
During yesterday’s Intersectional matches a number of situations arose that caused grief for some of the players, mainly because of lack of a basic understanding of the rules of golf.
1. Player A hits a ball and it comes to rest between the flag and the hole liner and is visible above the top edge of the hole. Player B’s caddie walks over and pulls out the flag moving A’s ball several feet from the hole. As I understand it, B claimed that A had to play the ball from where it came to rest after the flag was pulled(I’m serious).
Question: Presumably A gets to replace his ball between the flag and the liner, above the hole, and then has the opportunity to pull the flag out and if the ball falls into the hole, he has holed out. Is B penalized because of his caddie pulling out the flag?
2. Player A hits his ball in the bush and the group begins looking for it. After 8 minutes, B says, “Time is up, the ball is lost.” A gets angry and berates B for not telling him that he was being timed. Opponents C and D (Remember-Intersectional matches) do not support B in his claim that they had looked for the ball over 5 minutes. The OVGA official had explained before all matches that disputes had to be settled by the group before teeing off on the next hole. What should happen next?
3. This exact same scenario happened in my group where A found his ball well after 5 minutes was up, said he was going to play the ball and B then said that that was OK, because he had not declared the ball lost. Frankly, I said nothing as my matches with these two were over, and the “dispute” was between A and B, and not me. Should I have gotten into the middle of this said something when time was up? And I was timing this? B did win the hole anyway and I told him on the next hole what was wrong with what they did.
4. A hit his tee shot that landed on a bridge, bounced high and disappeared. A claimed that his ball was lost in the hazard(lateral) and he could drop according to that procedure. B, C and D claimed that there was no proof that the ball was in the hazard and told A that he has to treat the ball as lost and had to back to the tee and play his third shot. Correct procedure?
The most significant issue that came up was that if B breaks a rule, and A “calls” him, how can A have the correct procedure applied if B and C do not support A, either because they don’t know the rules, or they don’t have the guts to stand up to B. Remember: “All disputes must be settled before teeing off on the next hole.” Does it not make sense that A should have some right to make a claim in situations like these? There was no official on the course to make any decisions.
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07-03-2005 09:50 PM #2Originally Posted by BC MIST
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07-04-2005 07:27 AM #3
I had one interesting event yesterday as well regarding the giving of advice. While it is nice to have the local guy in your group there to say " there is a hazard 200 yards away" or "it's 250 to carry the dogleg", the local in my group yesterday said something to the effect of "you can hit it anywhere on this hole". Now I did not hear this 100% and asked the guy he said it to as we left the tee and that is what he said. It is pretty ambiguous "advice" and could be construed as the same as "there are no hazards in play on this tee shot" which is not advice but rather information as to the course layout. Would anyone construe that as advice or not? I let it go since it was pretty grey but it could have had an impact on our match.
On another note, ya gotta love match play. I was forced to make a 12 inch putt on 18 to halve the hole and win the match. Lots of fun all round!
Cheers
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07-04-2005 08:14 AM #4
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I would say he was passing on information about lack of problems
but
But which is advice and which information of the following 'Keep to the left', 'Keep to the left there is a bunker on the right' and 'There is a bunker on the right' ?
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07-04-2005 08:21 AM #5
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Originally Posted by GarthM
cheers,
Kris
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07-04-2005 08:22 AM #6
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Originally Posted by BC MIST
In stroke play 18-4, the ball must be replaced, no penalty.
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07-04-2005 08:27 AM #7
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Originally Posted by BC MIST
Rule 27-1 Lost ball 3 off the tee.
(Assuming the LH was a ditch or stream running alongside the hole - if it was the Atlantic Ocean there may be grounds for 'Reasonable evidence'
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07-04-2005 08:41 AM #8
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Originally Posted by kewarken
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07-04-2005 09:33 AM #9Originally Posted by BC MIST
I have acted as course official during Intersectional play and you're right, all disputes are to be resolved before playing off the next tee and if a dispute is on the last hole it has to be resolved before leaving the green.
Your disputes are interesting and it doesn't help when one of the players is being an ass.
Seeing that there was no official you (well your group) could have sat down with the OVGA official AFTER the matches and explain what happened (this has been done before in such cases). He (or she) would make the final ruling and adjust the points made if applicable.
If the dispute can't be resolved properly (no official on course) just be sure that ALL MATCHES INVOLVED CONTINUE RIGHT UP TO THE LAST HOLE. This way, if a change is to be made, it can still be done.
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07-04-2005 10:44 AM #10Originally Posted by BC MIST
b. Other Than During Search
If, other than during search for a player’s ball, an opponent, his caddie or his equipment moves the ball, touches it purposely or causes it to move, except as otherwise provided in the Rules, the opponent incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced.
Originally Posted by BC MIST
Originally Posted by BC MIST
Originally Posted by BC MIST
26-1. Relief for Ball in Water Hazard
It is a question of fact whether a ball lost after having been struck toward a water hazard is lost inside or outside the hazard. In order to treat the ball as lost in the hazard, there must be reasonable evidence that the ball lodged in it. In the absence of such evidence, the ball must be treated as a lost ball and Rule 27 applies.
Originally Posted by BC MIST[color=blue]s[/color][color=red]p[/color][color=blue]i[/color][color=red]d[/color][color=blue]e[/color][color=red]y[/color]
[color=seagreen]"Got more dirt than ball. Here we go again."
Alan Shepard, Apollo 14 Commander, Amateur-Golfer, preparing to take another swing during his famous moon walk in 1971.
[/color]
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07-04-2005 03:22 PM #11
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I too am surprised that there was no official on the course. Was the Host Pro at least out there? The course where we played does not have a professional, and because of past experience with "professional's" rulings, I don't trust that the ruling would be the proper one. The OVGA official on duty was never on the course.
I have acted as course official during Intersectional play and you're right, all disputes are to be resolved before playing off the next tee and if a dispute is on the last hole it has to be resolved before leaving the green.
If the dispute can't be resolved properly (no official on course) just be sure that ALL MATCHES INVOLVED CONTINUE RIGHT UP TO THE LAST HOLE. This way, if a change is to be made, it can still be done.
Your first paragraph indicates that all disputes must be settled before teeing off on the next tee. The second paragraph suggests that if there is a dispute that cannot be settled, play on, and maybe changes will be made later.
Similarly, the rule book states: In match play, if a doubt or dispute arises between the players, a player may make a claim. If no duly authorized representative of the Committee is available within a reasonable time, the players must continue the match without delay. So, if you cannot settle the dispute, PLAY ON.
But then it says: The Committee may consider a claim only if the player making the claim notifies his opponent (i) that he is making a claim, (ii) of the facts of the situation and (iii) that he wants a ruling. The claim must be made before any player in the match plays from the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last hole of the match, before all players in the match leave the putting green.
Do these two paragraphs not contradict each other? One says PLAY ON, while the other says SETTLE IT NOW.
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07-04-2005 03:26 PM #12
Wait. That's not what I read. The second instance says that you must inform the player that you are making a claim, the facts that you see, and that you want a ruling. It doesn't say that you must get a ruling prior to moving on.
[color=blue]s[/color][color=red]p[/color][color=blue]i[/color][color=red]d[/color][color=blue]e[/color][color=red]y[/color]
[color=seagreen]"Got more dirt than ball. Here we go again."
Alan Shepard, Apollo 14 Commander, Amateur-Golfer, preparing to take another swing during his famous moon walk in 1971.
[/color]
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07-04-2005 03:30 PM #13
It says you must make a claim bedore teeing off.
It does not say the claim must be settled before teeing off.
At least that's how I would read that.
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07-04-2005 03:31 PM #14
I think that it means that if a claim is to be made (ie. no official out there) all players involved have to be aware of this at that specific point in the round. Therefore, the dispute has been "resolved" before moving on to the next tee.
So, the dispute has been settled and they play on knowing that they will consult the official after the round.
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07-04-2005 05:14 PM #151dash1Guest
BC Mist:
1. No penalty. Rule 17-4 is explicit as to the procedure.
http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/bo...le17.html#17-4
Note: Some people get confused by Dec. 17-4/1. However, in that decision, the flagstick isn't removed, the ball is removed. And while lifting the ball under Rule 16-1 is permissible, the player must mark the ball first. The penalty is for failing to mark the ball, not for touching and moving the ball in play.
2. It sounds like the Tournament Committee delegated its powers for settling disputes to the playing group. If so, the answer depends on whether the delegated authority was final. And if it was final, then there's nothing further to discuss. The group may make its decision any way it chooses.Note: If, in fact, the Committee told each group to settle such matters, I find the Committee's delegation of authority to be highly irregular. What would have been closer to the norm would be the Committee telling the players involved in the match to settle such matters between themselves and, if they could not agree, to make a claim per Rule 2-5 for the Committee to settle later.
Ordinarily, the Committee itself oversees the conduct of match play. It does so actively, through Referees or Rules Officials. Or it does so passively, through the procedure of claims (Rule 2-5).
Under the procedure of claims, the player whose ball was found allegedly late must make a decision: play the original ball or take the stroke & distance penalty for the lost ball. If he plays the original ball, then his opponent must make a decision: make a claim or back down. If no claim is made, the hole stands as played. If a timely claim is made, then the Committee must rule on the matter.Note: If one player timed the search with his watch and the other three players merely express that they "think" that time has not expired, I would probably rule that the player who timed the search as being the more credible witness. The ball is lost. Claim upheld.
3. Technically, the answer depends on the previous question about delegation of the Committee's authority to the group. And that has to do with differentiating the roles of Referees, Rules Officials, and Committee members.
For simplicity, let us assume that you have NOT been delegated any such responsibilities by the Committee. If so, then your questions are less a question of the rules and more a matter of etiquette.- Personally, I think you acted correctly by not volunteering that over 5 minutes had elapsed.
4. I believe your question has already been answered.
- But, I suggest that if you choose silence, to remain silent until after the completion of the competition. For some players, the "what if" may bother them for holes to come. For other players, they may be very upset when the next situation arises and they are not afforded the same advantage because of your (after-the-fact) comments. Still others may react to your presence as the prying eyes of a rules eagle.
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07-05-2005 08:04 AM #16
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Originally Posted by The Shtick
What a shame that friendly competitions that the Intersectional are, have to come down to this kind of boorish behaviour. Had the player acquired some basic knowledge of the rules of golf, to me a prerequisite for being a participant, then perhaps the incidents would not have occurred.
BTW: There is a decision (2-5/1) that a player may disregard a breach of the rules by an opponent, as long as there was no agreement between them. So then by not clocking him, allowing an opponent to look longer than 5 minutes for a ball would be "acceptable" if the player so chooses? Holy Smokes!!!
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07-05-2005 08:16 AM #17
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Originally Posted by 1dash1
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07-05-2005 01:01 PM #181dash1Guest
BC Mist:
Generally speaking, the best policy for outsiders is to refrain from acting/volunteering information unless asked. (I.e., speak when spoken to.)
The point of match play is the pitting of skills and wills of two opposing sides against each another. Interference from the outside, no matter how well-intentioned, affects this balance.
There is one universal exception to this guidance, and that is when one side is cheating and the other side isn't in a position to catch the cheater. Cheating should not be tolerated. (Of course, the problem with catching the cheater is catching him in the act and being certain that he is, in fact, cheating.)
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07-05-2005 06:44 PM #191dash1GuestOriginally Posted by BC MIST
Most players operate under the misunderstanding that the Committee will rule in favor of the player whenever a situation pits one player's word versus another's.
I suggest a more accurate generalization is that, all other factors being equal, the Committee will give the benefit of the doubt to the player on a question of fact.
In this case, the question of fact is whether 5 minutes elapsed or not. And the ruling will hinge on the basis of the timing. If Player B's assertion is based on looking at his watch and he is certain of the time Player A reached the area and that his watch showed more than 5 minutes had elapsed, then that would be considered much more credible testimony than Player A's subjective estimate that 5 minutes had not yet elapsed. Hence, "all other factors" are not equal. And the Committee would be justified in upholding Player B's claim.
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07-07-2005 01:50 AM #20Originally Posted by BC MIST
You have NOTHING to do with that match.
You are only a silent spectator to their match.
No one in this thread has seemed to grasp the concept of 3 SEPARATE single matches being played concurrently.
Disputes between other opponents have NOTHING to do with you.
Originally Posted by BC MIST
If player C and player D wish to let player B break a Rule, that is their right.
There is nothing in the Rules that says an opponent must call a breach of a Rule.
In fact, even a referee may NOT call a breach of a Rule in match play.
BTW- Valid claims must be made before teeing off from the next hole, but disputes do not have to "settled" before teeing off on the next hole.
Also, there is no such thing as "the group being authorized" to settle a claim.
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07-07-2005 08:08 AM #21
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Originally Posted by Gary Hill
While my matches were finished at this point, the overall outcome, including the other 27 matches being played was not. If player A from one team and player B from another end their match all square, that result might have benefited our team. If player A breaks a rule and wins his match earning 2 points, it is possible that that 2 points may be enough to beat our team, so I do have an interest in what A and B are doing and whether or not they are playing by the rules. Because of this circumstance, do I not have the right to point out rules enfractions to one or both of these players?
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07-07-2005 08:53 AM #221dash1Guest
BC Mist:
I'd characterize the problem as being more an etiquette or moral imperative issue, than a rules issue. You're not part of their game, so you should stay out of their game. If you were still playing, wouldn't you wish the same consideration? But the Rules are ordinarily silent on this matter.
And attempting to influence the outcome of a remaining match is a very poor reason for interfering with the conduct of play. In an extreme case, I would suggest that the Committee consider a disqualification penalty as an exceptional case under Rule 33-7.
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07-07-2005 09:25 AM #231dash1Guest
Gary:
You mentioned that a referee may not call a breach of rule in match play. I find that comment puzzling. Does the RCGA provide different guidelines for its referees than the USGA and R&A?
Both the R&A and the USGA provide guidelines stipulating that referees act on any breach of rule that they observe.
Or perhaps you were referring to the rover (roving referee). However, even the rover may intervene in certain situations.
*
You also mentioned that there is no such thing as the group being authorized to make rulings.
REALISTICALLY, for what I assume is a reasonably high level competition (the intersectionals), they would follow the normal procedure of claims, as you described.
However, THEORETICALLY, the Committee may do so under its general powers of Rule 33-1. And you might see this happen at a club tournament where the usual Committee members might comprise half the competitors in the first place.
EDIT: These theoretical comments are withdrawn. The Committee that delegates its authority to each group is still proceeding incorrectly, so the final result is still wrong.Last edited by 1dash1; 07-08-2005 at 02:20 PM.
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07-07-2005 12:56 PM #24
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Originally Posted by 1dash1
The out come of my matches was determined, however, if something my opponents do wrong, may cause my team to lose the competition, because of team point totals being affected, how can I justify to my teammates sitting back and saying nothing and as a consequence lose the competition?
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07-07-2005 04:08 PM #251dash1GuestOriginally Posted by BC MIST
Because it is not a match for you, as a bystander, to win or lose.
It is a match for the players to win or lose.
.
.
Let's say the situation was reversed. You see a rules breach, but if you call it then your team would end up losing the overall competition. Would you call it?
If you would stand by and ignore one situation, I suggest that you should stand by and ignore the other situation as well.
Last edited by 1dash1; 07-07-2005 at 04:22 PM.
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07-07-2005 04:14 PM #26
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07-07-2005 04:38 PM #271dash1Guest
Dan:
It's a matter of taking the higher road. If you ordinarily won't interfere, don't interfere. If you ordinarily would butt in, butt in. Don't let selfish motivation be the difference between the two.
That's only one step away from looking for situations to get players into trouble, waiting like a vulture when a potential situation seems to be coming together, then jumping on the hapless player when he falls into the trap. I humbly suggest that such behavior by match play opponents is not the way the game was intended to be played. And it is flat out wrong for spectators to try to so influence the outcome of the contest.
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07-07-2005 04:43 PM #28
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07-07-2005 06:08 PM #29
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Originally Posted by 1dash1
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07-07-2005 06:13 PM #30Let's say the situation was reversed. You see a rules breach, but if you call it then your team would end up losing the overall competition. Would you call it?
If you would stand by and ignore one situation, I suggest that you should stand by and ignore the other situation as well.
I would NOT ignore it, regardless of the outcome
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