CorporateGolfXtra 2023
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 33
  1. #1
    Forum Jedi golfisforfun is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    ottawa
    Posts
    1,978

    Kanata Lakes on its way out???

    Not looking to start rumours or create chaos, but I have heard from a well-informed media person in Ottawa that Kanata Lakes will soon be sold and turned into housing...

    Has anyone else heard anything about this?

  2. #2
    Wannamaker stevek is on a distinguished road stevek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    West Carleton
    Posts
    1,053
    CFRA just announced that they're going to 'consult' about what to do the course lands which likely means more $1 000 000 (+) homes
    "Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men...
    the other 999 follow women." - Groucho Marx

  3. #3
    Gap Wedge Chucker is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    34
    Couple of articles:
    https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-home-builders

    Sounds like a discussion and consultation, for now...
    Last edited by Chucker; 12-14-2018 at 10:30 AM. Reason: Removed link

  4. #4
    Wannamaker stevek is on a distinguished road stevek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    West Carleton
    Posts
    1,053
    kanatapossibilities.ca

    is a link to their plans.
    "Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men...
    the other 999 follow women." - Groucho Marx

  5. #5
    In the Zone 4jag is on a distinguished road 4jag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    A Course Near You
    Posts
    694
    If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.

  6. #6
    I'm a regular em69 is on a distinguished road em69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Barrhaven
    Posts
    1,205
    Many of the words used by ClubLink are quite clear that redevelopment is the goal. This is not just "consulting"...it is clear they have a made a decision. Right now, they are just following the process as they slowly achieve their goal.

  7. #7
    Caddy Gofish2 is on a distinguished road Gofish2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Ottawa & Merritt Island, Fl
    Posts
    450
    The agreement was that they would return the property to the city if it was no longer used as a golf course. It will take the lawyers 10 minutes to get around that little detail

  8. #8
    In the Zone 1800Duffers is on a distinguished road 1800Duffers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    677
    The Citizen has a story in todays paper.

  9. #9
    Postmaster General big mac is on a distinguished road big mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Home-and glad to be
    Posts
    3,819
    AGAIN--it just comes down to the almighty buck ? Who actually owns the land---I thought it was part of the "green belt". Hmmmmm, if Club Link is selling off golf course property, then it would be safe to say that even they are suffering ???? You would think that maybe if they lowered their prices they could actually make Kanata Links a viable operation. I can't believe all these top end courses are running at a loss or as I said at the start----IT IS all about the $$$$$$
    Does the 2nd hole-n-one come easier ?

  10. #10
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    22,281
    The entire golf industry is suffering and has been sliding since the end of what I call the "Tiger Boom" The growth was awesome but it's pulling back now.
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  11. #11
    Shotmaker Johnyc is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    672
    Quote Originally Posted by big mac View Post
    AGAIN--it just comes down to the almighty buck ? Who actually owns the land---I thought it was part of the "green belt". Hmmmmm, if Club Link is selling off golf course property, then it would be safe to say that even they are suffering ???? You would think that maybe if they lowered their prices they could actually make Kanata Links a viable operation. I can't believe all these top end courses are running at a loss or as I said at the start----IT IS all about the $$$$$$
    The change in condition of the course over the last 15 years is dramatic. Costs to run and maintain courses has grown considerably while the money coming in has either remained static or has decreased. Not a great business model. I hate to say it but the best thing that could happen to the future of golf in the Ottawa area is for 5-10 courses to be swallowed up. I don’t know if anyone is making money right now and it just seems to me that courses are trying to survive in hopes that others fold. Many have diversified and are into rentals and venues for weddings, etc to help stay afloat.

    The one thing about belonging to a private course is getting a detailed accounting of money coming in and going out and it is staggering. If this is any indication do what is happening elsewhere I don’t know how long others can hold on.

  12. #12
    In the Zone 1800Duffers is on a distinguished road 1800Duffers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    677
    What happens to those members that paid a premium to have that as their home course?

  13. #13
    Forum Jedi golfisforfun is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    ottawa
    Posts
    1,978
    The money that Clublink might have to pay back to its members is peanuts compared the money they will get from the sale of the property!!!

  14. #14
    Postmaster General big mac is on a distinguished road big mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Home-and glad to be
    Posts
    3,819
    As Johny C says: we have no access to what it actually costs to run and maintain a course. I guess if you are a member of a private course this will be in the annual report. We do have a lot of courses here in Ottawa---that could be part of the problem. You can play anywhere from 20.00 to 100.00. With the amount of golf I play now--60.00 with cart w/EG is fine twice a week---100.00 twice a week no way. If Equinelle and Stonebridge are surviving (or are they ? maybe just a lost leader to sell homes) why can't others do the same. It seems the Canadian is doing just fine and a few others. I just don't know--it must be a tough go today.
    Does the 2nd hole-n-one come easier ?

  15. #15
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    7,686
    For a course like Kanata Lakes the annual maintenance budget would likely be in the $1.2M range based on the numbers from our club.

    That is to keep it at the level of conditioning that Clublink and the membership want. If they want to compromise on the conditioning they could reduce the budget.
    Not fat anymore. Need to get better at golf now!

  16. #16
    Moderator Team Match Play Champ 2013, 2014 BogeyGolf is on a distinguished road BogeyGolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    3,590
    It should be interesting if they can get out of the returning the land back to "Green Space". From what I read, that was part of the agreement when it was first proposed and built. I am not sure the NCC would buy it at what Clublink thinks the land is worth for development purposes. I guess we will see what City Council has to say, but I am sure Mayor Watson will be there for a Photo Opportunity...my friend says he will show up for the opening of a envelope...LOL

  17. #17
    Wannamaker stevek is on a distinguished road stevek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    West Carleton
    Posts
    1,053
    It's all about Return on Investment. Even if the golf club was running full out at maximum profit it still likely wouldn't be as much as they could get for selling all those lots at today's prices. Golf courses belong in rural areas...
    "Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men...
    the other 999 follow women." - Groucho Marx

  18. #18
    Caddy Gofish2 is on a distinguished road Gofish2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Ottawa & Merritt Island, Fl
    Posts
    450

    Mayor Watson

    Quote Originally Posted by BogeyGolf View Post
    It should be interesting if they can get out of the returning the land back to "Green Space". From what I read, that was part of the agreement when it was first proposed and built. I am not sure the NCC would buy it at what Clublink thinks the land is worth for development purposes. I guess we will see what City Council has to say, but I am sure Mayor Watson will be there for a Photo Opportunity...my friend says he will show up for the opening of a envelope...LOL
    I sell honey at various craft shows and a farmer's market and can confirm that the mayor shows up on a regular basis and appreciate his making the effort. I certainly don't see many provincial or federal politicians anytime between elections ;(

  19. #19
    Posting Sensei justsomeguy is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    around here
    Posts
    2,099
    Quote Originally Posted by BogeyGolf View Post
    It should be interesting if they can get out of the returning the land back to "Green Space". From what I read, that was part of the agreement when it was first proposed and built. I am not sure the NCC would buy it at what Clublink thinks the land is worth for development purposes. I guess we will see what City Council has to say, but I am sure Mayor Watson will be there for a Photo Opportunity...my friend says he will show up for the opening of a envelope...LOL
    The NCC has nothing to do with it. From what I have read, the agreement was that the City of Ottawa could get the land back for nothing - but that agreement was a long time ago and there will certainly be a court battle if the city wants to enforce it. I think this is just the opening skirmish and the end result is far from being determined, but I would not be surprised if the course ends up as 60% housing and 40% parkland when all is said and done.

  20. #20
    Shotmaker Johnyc is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    672
    Quote Originally Posted by jvincent View Post
    For a course like Kanata Lakes the annual maintenance budget would likely be in the $1.2M range based on the numbers from our club.

    That is to keep it at the level of conditioning that Clublink and the membership want. If they want to compromise on the conditioning they could reduce the budget.
    I agree with the estimate. That’s about half what Hunt Club spends on maintenance. It’s not cheap keeping courses in top shape. And I have to believe it’s one of the first things to get cut when purse strings tighten. But as previously posted, as conditions downgrade the fee payer or member becomes disappointed because they aren’t getting the same quality for money spent and choose to to go elsewhere. Then they leave and even less money comes in therefore conditions go down further and more people choose to leave.... Its a brutal cycle and it’s happening all over this area

  21. #21
    Must be Single Sakuraba is on a distinguished road Sakuraba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Cattown, PQ
    Posts
    3,012
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnyc View Post
    I agree with the estimate. That’s about half what Hunt Club spends on maintenance. It’s not cheap keeping courses in top shape. And I have to believe it’s one of the first things to get cut when purse strings tighten. But as previously posted, as conditions downgrade the fee payer or member becomes disappointed because they aren’t getting the same quality for money spent and choose to to go elsewhere. Then they leave and even less money comes in therefore conditions go down further and more people choose to leave.... Its a brutal cycle and it’s happening all over this area
    I've been saying this for a long time now. It has never been more expensive to operate a golf course, and yet somehow it has never been cheaper to play. Something has to give, especially with the fact that # of rounds played is down. The market cannot continue in that direction. Courses that don't charge enough will close. At least the courses whose real estate is valuable can sell.
    Andrew

  22. #22
    Postmaster General big mac is on a distinguished road big mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Home-and glad to be
    Posts
    3,819
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakuraba View Post
    I've been saying this for a long time now. It has never been more expensive to operate a golf course, and yet somehow it has never been cheaper to play. Something has to give, especially with the fact that # of rounds played is down. The market cannot continue in that direction. Courses that don't charge enough will close. At least the courses whose real estate is valuable can sell.
    Simply put and to the point Couldn't agree more.
    Does the 2nd hole-n-one come easier ?

  23. #23
    Shotmaker Johnyc is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    672
    Quote Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
    The NCC has nothing to do with it. From what I have read, the agreement was that the City of Ottawa could get the land back for nothing - but that agreement was a long time ago and there will certainly be a court battle if the city wants to enforce it. I think this is just the opening skirmish and the end result is far from being determined, but I would not be surprised if the course ends up as 60% housing and 40% parkland when all is said and done.
    The city gets the land back IF they run it as a golf course. Does the city really want to be back in the golf course business and lose money? If the city does not choose to run it as a golf course than they do not get the land back

  24. #24
    Hall of Fame jeffc is on a distinguished road jeffc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    In the 613!
    Posts
    8,301
    Quote Originally Posted by big mac View Post
    Simply put and to the point Couldn't agree more.
    Yet Clublink says it was very profitable and the most of the courses they have in Ottawa. So it’s not that it’s not making $, its that the land is worth a lot more being developed into houses.
    I got a fever. And the only prescription is more golf equipment.

  25. #25
    Shotmaker Johnyc is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    672
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffc View Post
    Yet Clublink says it was very profitable and the most of the courses they have in Ottawa. So it’s not that it’s not making $, its that the land is worth a lot more being developed into houses.
    Are some courses making a profit, yes. But I’d be willing to bet that these are the courses that have diversified their business and are now into weddings, conferences, etc. The golf business model is broken. As someone said above and in which I completely agree, more money isn’t coming in but costs continue to rise. Not a great model

  26. #26
    Wannamaker brucestats is on a distinguished road brucestats's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    near coyotes
    Posts
    1,056
    Clublink has determined that houses are more valuable than the venerable Glen Abbey. From this angle, Kanata Lakes has no chance for survival.

    Corporations make business decisions, and if it means less golf, so be it. Golf courses are surviving in Ottawa because of a lifestyle decision on its owners, not economics. But the long term reality will still be less golf courses, unless another Tiger arrives to change these economics.
    My paycheck goes to my dogs.

  27. #27
    Hall of Fame jeffc is on a distinguished road jeffc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    In the 613!
    Posts
    8,301
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnyc View Post
    Are some courses making a profit, yes. But I’d be willing to bet that these are the courses that have diversified their business and are now into weddings, conferences, etc. The golf business model is broken. As someone said above and in which I completely agree, more money isn’t coming in but costs continue to rise. Not a great model
    I get that, but in this case it's not what is happening.
    I got a fever. And the only prescription is more golf equipment.

  28. #28
    Shotmaker Johnyc is on a distinguished road
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    672
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffc View Post
    I get that, but in this case it's not what is happening.
    Just found this on page 22 of clublink’s annual report;

    Canadian Golf Club Operations

    Management is expecting 2018 revenue from the amortization of membership fees to be approximately $6.6 million compared to $7.7 million in 2017. This decline is primarily the result of the members that joined in 2004 completing their amortization period in 2017. Commencing in 2018, this group of members will continue to generate revenue on a cash received basis.
    In general, membership fee collections have been declining over the last five years due to the downward pressure from our competitors and an oversupply of golf courses in the markets that the Company operates. The average membership price for 2017 was $4,107 as compared to $5,996 for fiscal 2016 and $9,202 in 2015. This trend is expected to continue in the short-term. Inflationary increases for annual dues are still the norm.

    Can’t find any information specific to Kanata but that’s a significant drop in revenue. Average membership prices have dropped 60% in two years.
    Last edited by Johnyc; 12-30-2018 at 10:12 PM.

  29. #29
    Hall of Fame jeffc is on a distinguished road jeffc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    In the 613!
    Posts
    8,301
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnyc View Post
    Just found this on page 22 of clublink’s annual report;

    Canadian Golf Club Operations

    Management is expecting 2018 revenue from the amortization of membership fees to be approximately $6.6 million compared to $7.7 million in 2017. This decline is primarily the result of the members that joined in 2004 completing their amortization period in 2017. Commencing in 2018, this group of members will continue to generate revenue on a cash received basis.
    In general, membership fee collections have been declining over the last five years due to the downward pressure from our competitors and an oversupply of golf courses in the markets that the Company operates. The average membership price for 2017 was $4,107 as compared to $5,996 for fiscal 2016 and $9,202 in 2015. This trend is expected to continue in the short-term. Inflationary increases for annual dues are still the norm.

    Can’t find any information specific to Kanata but that’s a significant drop in revenue. Average membership prices have dropped 60% in two years.
    At their AGM they said Kanata was very profitable.
    I got a fever. And the only prescription is more golf equipment.

  30. #30
    Wannamaker stevek is on a distinguished road stevek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    West Carleton
    Posts
    1,053
    Quote Originally Posted by jeffc View Post
    At their AGM they said Kanata was very profitable.
    But obviously not as profitable as selling million dollar homes...
    "Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men...
    the other 999 follow women." - Groucho Marx

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Similar Threads

  1. Fri. 4:00 p.m. Kanata Lakes
    By bobjones59 in forum Arrange a Game
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-17-2007, 10:54 PM
  2. kanata lakes
    By lichty in forum Local Stuff
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 07-04-2007, 11:38 AM
  3. Kanata Lakes G.C.
    By ADAbsolutNDN in forum Local Stuff
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 06-14-2007, 12:33 PM
  4. kanata lakes
    By lichty in forum Local Stuff
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-01-2006, 07:54 AM
  5. Kanata Lakes
    By Marcos in forum Local Stuff
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-12-2006, 11:46 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts