Another where to drop Q...

[oneputt]

Hello,

So you're hitting to a green that is just beyond a pond. You hit your shot short and it lands just on the edge of the water, not in the water, but on the bank of the lake just in front of the green. The area has thick grass and rough and you're not able to hit the ball, but you can retrieve it. Where does someone drop the ball? Can they drop it within two club lengths of the red stakes on that side, or do they need to drop a ball on the other side (before the pond where it crossed)?

Thanks!

[DCH]

Your last statement is correct.

If the pond is marked with red stakes it is a Lateral Water Hazard, therefore you may drop outside the LWH within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the WH or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the WH equidistan from the hole (Rule 26-1c). From your description, point (ii) is what you are asking about but is is almost certain that the point is not equidistant from the where the ball crossed on the side you hit the ball.


If the pond is in front of the green it seems to me that it should be marked with yellow posts. In which case, none of the above is available anyway as 26-1c is only applicable to a LWH.

[oneputt]

Thanks, so after reading your reply it sounds like i'd have to take a drop back where the ball crossed the last bit of land? Also, what is the big difference between yellow and red stakes...i have no clue.

[el tigre]

In order to determine where you drop, you need to determine the point at which the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard. When there are stakes used (which seems to the case here), then the margin of the hazard is defined by the stakes - not by the edge of the water. You can still be in the hazard but not in the water.

If your ball cleared the water but not the margin of the hazard (defined by the stakes), then you would drop a ball before the pond since anywhere on the other side is almost certainly closer to the hole than where you last crossed the margin of the hazard. If your ball cleared all of the hazard and then bounced backwards or sideways into the hazard, then you may be able to drop on the other side under Rule 26 if it is a lateral hazard and you can find a spot within 2 club lengths that is not nearer the hole.

You stated there were red stakes which would indicate a lateral water hazard, but the "pond" you are describing seems to be more like a regular water hazard. Water hazards can be both - for example a pond that is both in front of the green and on the left side would normally have yellow stakes in front and red stakes on the side. This is important because you only have the additional drop option of 2-club lengths on either side if your ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard.

[DCH]

From the Rules of Golf – Definitions



A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course.

All ground or water within the margin of a water hazard is part of the water hazard. The margin of a water hazard extends vertically upwards and downwards. Stakes and lines defining the margins of water hazards are in the hazards. Such stakes are obstructions. A ball is in a water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the water hazard.

Note 1: Stakes or lines used to define a water hazard must be yellow. When both stakes and lines are used to define water hazards, the stakes identify the hazard and the lines define the hazard margin.



A "lateral water hazard" is a water hazard or that part of a water hazard so situated that it is not possible or is deemed by the Committee to be impracticable to drop a ball behind the water hazard in accordance with Rule 26-1b.

That part of a water hazard to be played as a lateral water hazard should be distinctively marked. A ball is in a lateral water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the lateral water hazard.

Note 1: Stakes or lines used to define a lateral water hazard must be red. When both stakes and lines are used to define lateral water hazards, the stakes identify the hazard and the lines define the hazard margin.

For more info on the rule check out the following sites.

http://www.randa.com
http://www.usga.org/home/index.html

[broken27]

But this ball sounds like it didn't end up IN the hazard, just ended up unplayable... Wouldn't that mean point of nearest relief no closer to the hole?

Thanks in adv.

Dan

[DCH]

When there are stakes used (which seems to the case here), then the margin of the hazard is defined by the stakes - not by the edge of the water. You can still be in the hazard but not in the water.

Not quite. Stakes on their own may simply identify the presence of a water hazard. The committee may specify what defines the margin if it is not a straight line between the stakes. Eg.The natural fall in the ground at the edge of a ditch, the edge of an open concrete culvert, the end of the grassed area and the start of a pond liner, the water line itself, the cut between light rough and long rough or red/yellow painted lines.
Incidentally, any water outside the defined margin is casual water.

[Gary Hill]

Not quite. Stakes on their own may simply identify the presence of a water hazard.

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

[DCH]

But this ball sounds like it didn't end up IN the hazard, just ended up unplayable... Wouldn't that mean point of nearest relief no closer to the hole?

The relief for 'unplayable' does not include 'nearest point of relief', only :-
1) as near as possible to original shot
2) go back on a line from the hole thru the ball as far as you wish
2) 2 club lengths of the spot where the ball is, not nearer than hole

[oneputt]

I'm still confused on the difference of red and yellow stakes. From what I understand the main difference is the amount of club length relief you can take?

[Gary Hill]

I'm still confused on the difference of red and yellow stakes. From what I understand the main difference is the amount of club length relief you can take?

Yellow stakes are used for water hazards that generally go across the fairway perpendicular to the line of play. The relief is behind the water hazard.

Red stakes are used for water hazards that go parallel to a fairway. Relief is to the side.

[el tigre]

Not quite. Stakes on their own may simply identify the presence of a water hazard. The committee may specify what defines the margin if it is not a straight line between the stakes.

Anything is possible, but I have never seen a committee do this. Courses that use both stakes and lines almost always put the stakes on the line. Where there are stakes but no lines on the ground, I think you can assume that the margin of the hazard is defined as a straight line between the stakes and you would be correct 99% of the time.

[DCH]

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

Gary
I can't find a rule saying how the Committee must define the margins.
If you can tell me which it is I would be grateful.

[Gary Hill]

Anything is possible, but I have never seen a committee do this. Courses that use both stakes and lines almost always put the stakes on the line. Where there are stakes but no lines on the ground, I think you can assume that the margin of the hazard is defined as a straight line between the stakes and you would be correct 99% of the time.

Anything is not possible.

There is specific Rules and definitions on defining the margins of hazards.

You don't have to assume, you would be correct 100% of the time.

Quoted by DCH:
"Stakes on their own may simply identify the presence of a water hazard."
This statement is WRONG. Don't let it confuse you.

[broken27]

The relief for 'unplayable' does not include 'nearest point of relief', only :-
1) as near as possible to original shot
2) go back on a line from the hole thru the ball as far as you wish
2) 2 club lengths of the spot where the ball is, not nearer than hole

Fine, well option 2 (2) is likely the best case scenario in the described situation, given that the ball is not in the hazard. If it's not possible, then yes, go backwards along the line of the shot...

Dan

[el tigre]

But this ball sounds like it didn't end up IN the hazard, just ended up unplayable... Wouldn't that mean point of nearest relief no closer to the hole?

You cannot declare a ball unplayable if it is IN a water hazard (see Rule 28), so you must determine first whether you are inside the margin of the hazard or not.

[oneputt]

You cannot declare a ball unplayable if it is IN a water hazard (see Rule 28), so you must determine first whether you are inside the margin of the hazard or not.

This ball was inside the margin of the hazard.

[broken27]

You cannot declare a ball unplayable if it is IN a water hazard (see Rule 28), so you must determine first whether you are inside the margin of the hazard or not.

Ah, well judging by the subsequent post it WAS in the hazard. My bad. The original description seemed to purposefully include details that led me to believe it was not in the hazard itself, but had crossed.

I know you can't declare a ball unplayable in a hazard...

Dan

[Gary Hill]

Gary
I can't find a rule saying how the Committee must define the margins.
If you can tell me which it is I would be grateful.

Before I do that, you show me where it says:
"Stakes on their own may simply identify the presence of a water hazard."

[oneputt]

Ah, well judging by the subsequent post it WAS in the hazard. My bad. The original description seemed to purposefully include details that led me to believe it was not in the hazard itself, but had crossed.

I know you can't declare a ball unplayable in a hazard...

Dan

Yeah, sorry about that. The ball crossed the pond, but landed on the bank on the other side, inside the margin of the water hazard. There is nowhere I could drop the ball on that side that WOULD NOT be closer to the hole, so I'd have to go back to the other side of the pond and drop....right?

[Gary Hill]

so I'd have to go back to the other side of the pond and drop....right?

Right.

[el tigre]

Anything is not possible.

There is specific Rules and definitions on defining the margins of hazards.

You don't have to assume, you would be correct 100% of the time.

Quoted by DCH:
"Stakes on their own may simply identify the presence of a water hazard."
This statement is WRONG. Don't let it confuse you.

Thanks Gary. The Notes he quoted from the Definitions confused me - my RCGA Rule Book has different wording. Has this been changed? I probably should buy a newer Rule Book anyway!

[oneputt]

So is it a 2 club length releif for both colored stakes? Also, is it fine to use your driver for measuring this distance. Can you leave the headcover on?

[Gary Hill]

Thanks Gary. The Notes he quoted from the Definitions confused me - my RCGA Rule Book has different wording. Has this been changed? I probably should buy a newer Rule Book anyway!

Are you using the "Articles and Laws in Playing Golf" from 1744?

[Gary Hill]

So is it a 2 club length releif for both colored stakes? Also, is it fine to use your driver for measuring this distance. Can you leave the headcover on?

Read Rule 26-1 for relief procedures and NO you can't leave your head cover on.

[oneputt]

Thanks for all the info everyone. I find this forum kicks ass.

[el tigre]

Are you using the "Articles and Laws in Playing Golf" from 1744?

Are they similar to David Feherty's "original rules" from A Nasty Bit of Rough. As I recall there were only two rules: 1) Play the ball as it lies, and 2) Play the course as ye find it.

I'm not quite that old-fashioned. I've updated to the RCGA Rules of Golf effective January 1, 2000.

[Gary Hill]

I've updated to the RCGA Rules of Golf effective January 1, 2000.

Then you are only FOUR years behind.

The 1744 Rules had 13 Rules.

[Kilroy]

Gentleman Golfers of Leith 1744 Rules of Golf

1 You must Tee your Ball within a Club length of the Hole. 2 Your Tee must be upon the ground. 3 You are not to change the Ball which you strike off the Tee. 4 You are not to remove Stones, Bones, or any Break-club for the sake of playing your Ball, except upon the fair Green, and that only within a Club length of your Ball. 5 If your Ball come among Water, or any watery filth, you are at liberty to take out your Ball, and bringing it behind the hazard, and teeing it, you may play it with any club and allow your Adversary a stroke for so getting out your Ball. 6 If your Balls be found anywhere touching one another, you are to lift the first Ball till you play the last. 7 At holing, you are to play your Ball honestly for the Hole, and not play upon your Adversary's Ball, not lying in your way to the Hole. 8 If you should lose your Ball by its being taken up, or in any other way, you are to go back to the spot where you struck last, and drop another Ball, and allow your Adversary a stroke for your misfortune. 9 No man, at Holing his Ball, is to be allowed to mark to the Hole with his Club or anything else. 10 If a Ball be stop'd by any person, Horse, Dog, or anything else, the Ball so stop'd must be played where it lyes. 11 If you draw your Club in order to strike, and proceed as far in the stroke as to be bringing down your Club - if then your Club shall break in any way, it is to be accounted a stroke. 12 He whose Ball lyes farthest from the Hole is obliged to play first. 13 Neither Trench, Ditch, nor Dyke made for the preservation of the Links, nor the Scholars' holes, nor the Soldiers' lines, shall be accounted a Hazard, but the Ball is to be taken out, Teed, and played with any iron Club.

[Kilroy]

Water, or any watery filth

I love that