How honest are you?

[The Shtick]

Gary-

One rule that you forgot to mention....

The main rule in golf and most definetly the main focus of this thread is to HAVE FUN.

It makes the game more enjoyable for the player in question and playing partners as well. Personally, after the game I'd much rather talk about the good shots (and the bad) of the round, not where I should have placed my ball or which rule applies to what. Don't get me wrong, I know the rules as well..... but I'm sure that I speak for many viewers of this forum and the main reason why we play is to have fun.

[Gary Hill]

Steve -

It takes 30 seconds extra to hit a provisional ball. 30 provisional balls would add 15 minutes to his round.

Nobody could realistically says he had 10 putts knocked off line by spike marks in a round. Can you?

Why on earth would you hit a ball into heavy rough and NOT play a provisional ball?

I dont understand the reference to: 15 minutes after you hit it? You are either a slow walker or taking too long to search.

Could you explain these luxuries that a pro has when it comes to the Rules. ????


The Shtick-

Which of the Rules do you take seriously?

Could you show me which Rules are important and which Rules are not?

Would you have more fun if I was constantly teeing off halfway down the fairway?

Would you have more fun if I answered "Three" everytime you asked my score?

Would we have more fun after the game talking about how I beat you by 20 strokes but my antics didn't remotely resemble golf?

You report that you know the Rules. Then why would you be discussing them after the round. Players only argue about the Rules they DON'T know.

I fail to see why playing by the Rules equates to NOT having fun.

Maybe you could enlighten me on this point.

[NoBack]

Again let me say that we are talking about guys that dont care about their scores. The guy that hits his ball and is questionable OB. If he hits a provisional ball, he is still entiled to 5 minutes of looking for his first, isnt he?

So, if he hits 30 provisionals and still takes his 5 minutes to look for the first balls. That adds up to 150 minutes doesnt it? And what happens IF he doesnt find his provisional ball? Back to the tee and another few minutes.

Gary, your telling me that every time you hit a ball into the heavy rough you hit a provisional ball? Maybe I didnt only mean just the heavy rough, but I have played at courses where the grass is long enough to loose balls where you would think it was ok (ex. Eagle Creek regular rough is always pretty snarly). Should I be playing a second ball every time I'm not in the fairway?

As for the 15 minutes after you hit it, lets say you are first to hit and hit into the rough but a long way, you have 3 others hitting their tee shots, walking to their balls as well as hitting their 2nd shots. Now 15 minutes after you hit yours, you have to find it in the rough but dont. You then walk back to hit another ball. Remember Gary these guys arent shooting in the 70's, 80's or even 90's, they are playing over 100 all the time and closer to 120.

As far as the pros are concerned, you've marshalled many tournaments,right? So you have marked a ball for the player who hits it into the rough with a little flag to indicate where his ball is in the rough or heavy rough, right? He DOES NOT have to spend his time looking for that ball and should not have to hit another one just in case. This is one advantage.

The pros have ALL areas under repair clearly marked, and if not there is marshall in their forsome for the correct drop. This is two advantages. Their sandtraps are always properly raked and with ZERO footprints in them. I could go on, but my point is made.

Again, Gary I was not saying dont play by the rules but if it makes the game quicker and more enjoyable for the average weekend golfer, to have some rules modified, then why not?

[Kilroy]

We all want to play by the rules.

The rules are written for the pros with committees in attendance to settle issues, and prepare the course for an event. I have read a lot of the rules and decisions, and a lot depends on the committees. This just does not happen day to day. :shakehead

As much as we have the best of intentions, it is very hard for hackers like us to faithfully follow all the rules to the letter, due to all the conditions and circumstances already discussed in this thread.

Those of us that would like to do so would not be popular in our foursomes or the foursomes following. It is all well and good to take the hard line here Gary, and as our rules official I certainly appreciate it, but isn't it really a bit impractical to enforce all the RCGA rules to the letter in a casual game on a muni course? :crying (No I do not really expect you to agree here but it was worth a try.)

We, the "average" golfers have been crying for a set of rules that would make us all honest, and able to enjoy a round at a $40 course without having to play off of hardpan that would be marked GUR for the pros. The rules speak a lot about equity. How is that situation equitable?

Why can't I hit an ERC? I can understand that if the pros hit it 350 yards it defeats the course design, but I am never going to find Eagle Creek too short.

I doubt that we will see any official rule changes for recreational players, but the truth is most amatures do modify the rules within their groups. The question of which rules, and modify how, should have a real answer.

[4jag]

Don't take this the wrong way Gary but I hope I never play a casual round in the same foursome as you or behind you as you send guys back to the tee and/or everyone in your group hits 2 tee shots each in case they can't find their ball in the rough.

You are clearly in the minority here on this forum, whether sanctioned or not there are two sets of rules in golf. Those for tournament play and those agreed to by your foursome for casual rounds. The problem is that the second set is loosely defined and not documented - perhaps golf's governing bodies should awaken to this reality and do something about it?

I appreciate having "rules nazis" around when playing tournaments but a causal round with my friends or wife IS different.

I don't see how posting a score for handicap after rolling the ball in the fairway or being my own "judge" for GUR hurts anyone. If anything it hurts me by giving me an artifically low index when playing sanctioned events.

[Gary Hill]

Steve-

There is no limit to the number of consecutive provisional balls that can be played if the provisional ball may also be lost.
The second provisional ball bears to the first provisional ball the same relationship as the first provisional ball bears to the original ball, and so on.

In my personal golf, I have been forced to return to the tee ONCE.

Players searching for balls for 150 minutes should be given a voucher for lessons.

If all players went to look for their OWN ball directly, then the total for ALL players searching is 5 minutes, not 20 minutes.

I officiate tournaments, not marshal as a forecaddie.

Marshals cannot grant relief.
The only events where there is an official in every group is the U.S. Open and the British Open.

Bunkers (not sand traps) are HAZARDS. Where is it written that you DESERVE a perfect lie in a hazard?


Dan -

The rules are written for the pros with committees in attendance to settle issues, and prepare the course for an event. I have read a lot of the rules and decisions, and a lot depends on the committees. This just does not happen day to day.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE!!!!!!!!!!!

The Rules are written by the governing bodies for AMATEUR GOLF for AMATEUR golfers.
There are NO professional Rules.
The PGA does NOT have a set of Rules.

The professional tours have decided to adopt the amateur rules in their entirety.
The professionals have a few special event conditions mainly for TV. ( no shorts, no marking on the green with a tee, etc.)

The course is well prepared for a professional event because it is a multi-million dollar television attraction; nothing more.

The committee you speak of is the person(s) in charge of the course or event.
By definition; there HAS to be a committee where you play day to day.

I have already addressed the issue of playing two balls when you are in doubt as to whether an area "should" be GUR.

Why cant you hit an ERC? Then a hockey stick? Then a tennis ball? Where would you have it end?

As to Arnold Palmer: He is a PAID spokesperson for Callaway who has been advocating using ILLEGAL clubs for years.


4jag -

In recreational play, I never "call" rules on playing companions. I do answer questions WHEN ASKED.

I agree you 100% that it is the governing bodies' fault for letting this get out of control.

I do NOT appreciated be referred to as a Rules Nazi.

Handicap events are setup in flights so that players of similar caliber play together.
You defeat the whole purpose of the system whether you cheat in a negative or positive manner on your handicap factor.

[4jag]

Although I didn't call you a rule nazi directly, I suppose I did infer that you were one as I was referring to tournament officials in general. And for that I do apologize. Sorry Gary.

In the spirit of Sienfeld's Soup Nazi...."no relief for you!"

[Colby]

I do agree with Gary, the Rules Nazi line was a bit over the top. (just saw the clarification )

As for following the rules to the tee, and someone tell me if this is right or not...

If I play in a round, using "local rules" with maybe a preferred lie or two along the way in the fairway, my handicap will most likely indicate that by being less than it should. Then if I play in an event where I am not going to get the benefits of these "local rules", my round should be higher, on average, then my handicap indicates.

So in reality, I am punished in official events by using "local rules".

On the other hand, because I don't belong to a club, my handicap is unofficial anyways, so playing by "local rules" doesn't hurt me or others as long as we keep the pace of play going.

My 0.02, for right or wrong

[Gary Hill]

no problem

In the spirit of Sienfeld's Soup Nazi...."no relief for you!"

blahahahahahaha

[Gary Hill]

Colby -

Local Rules allowing preferred lies, by defintion, are supposed to be used ONLY when the course conditions do not allow equitable play of the game.
If used properly, they should not effect your overall handicap factor.

However, I do know courses in the Ottawa area that use PERMANENT preferred lies which is totally against the Rules and they have NO authority do do so without special excemption from the R.C.G.A. :mad:

[Colby]

Sorry Gary, I meant "local rules" in being the rules defined by the foursome. Bad choice of words.

BTW, I really do like reading your rule interpretations. I usually find out something I don't know.

[Gary Hill]

....defined by the foursome. Bad choice of words

Oh well, as long as I am nit-picking

Definition:

Foursome: A match in which two play against two, and each side plays one ball.

Four people playing together in a group are "playing companions".

[Kilroy]

Hehehe.
Isn't a group agreeing to circumvent any rule in violation by doing so? Would a league allowing "stick handling" in the fairway be such a violation?

I think were outa luck no matter we slice it. There is no way to do these things within the rules.

If the rules are laid out for amatures, then why doesn't the RCGA check to see that GUR is properly identified at all times so that we may play the game properly?

Stirring the pot

[Gary Hill]

Yes, agreeing to waive any Rule IS a violation. (disqualification)

I have explained identifying GUR and dealing with it ad naseaum :{
(plez post to the Rules group if you still need clarification)

Everyone is missing the point here.

You are all assuming that the R.C.G.A. has Rules cops looking for people using a foot wedge.
Believe me, they dont care.

Use illegal clubs, gimmie 100 footers, kick it out of the rough, throw it down the fairway with your hand, whatever.

The governing bodies of golf COULD CARE LESS what you and your playing companions do in a casual round.

They DO care if you submit scores for handicap factor purposes under these conditions.
They DO care if you submit scores in a sanctioned event under these conditions.

Mostly what we are talking about here only concerns handicap factor.
A true handicap factor depends on compliance with the Rules and the posting of all rounds played.

Other than that, you can do anything you want. You just cant call it GOLF.
The governing bodies' own the name and they make the Rules.

[Colby]

You just cant call it GOLF

I usually don't call it golf either.

I never expected a rules official to jump out from behind a tree when I give the guy scoring a 10 on a par five that two footer.

And I do expect that if I ever start entering scores for official purposes into an official handicapping system, I will try and follow the rules to the best of my ability, taking penalties when required. But for now, and into the foreseeable future, at least as far as I can see for me, I will only be involved in casual rounds with friends, or playing in events that use unofficial handicaps, OGT, and as I mentioned in a post above, breaking the rules during casual rounds may hurt my scoring during these events as I should score higher than the casual rounds.

Plus after a few beer, my buddies are gonna be grumpy when I keep making them putt out that 1 footer :mad:

[Kilroy]

[i]Originally posted by Gary Hill
The governing bodies of golf COULD CARE LESS what you and your playing companions do in a casual round.

This may well be the problem. Since I do care what we do in our casual rounds, and I'd like to feel that I can play within the rules. The thing is a lot of it is impractical enough to cause problems on the course, and it leads to anarchy!

[Colby]

Anarchy, I like that.

Does that mean I can hit the ball back at the guy who keeps hitting it into us as we are waiting for the green to clear? Viking helmets would be good too!

I think most of the frustration comes from the fact that we all have played too many courses that have fairways that are mostly weeds on a clay bed, the greens are pockmarked and the course has booked people every 7-8 minutes which is fine for the first par 4's or 5's you come to, but when you hit the first or second par 3, bring out the lawn chairs, it's now a 6 hour round.

When you play a course like Eagle Creek which has good fairways, a ball in a divot mark is not a real tough obstacle. However, when you are playing out a divot hole that is a couple of inches deep in clay, that no-one has bothered to repair, for the average golfer 95+, it's rough going, and with their fragile mindset, could ruin their day, causing frustration that can carry over several holes as they back up against other groups and the round drags on.

The USGA spent millions of dollars on fixing up Bethpage Black for the Open as the course before the started showed definate signs of overuse and abuse. I wonder what its condition will be in 5-6 years.

What was my point, oh yeah, the start of this thread was in the context of casual rounds with your buddies with beer and bragging rights on the line. I think we all agree that in an official event, GUR will be marked as best that they can, and if there is any question, the two ball approach that Gary explained is to be used. (I didn't know that, you learn something every day!)

Anyway, I'm going onto the porch to try my anti-rain dance and/or give mouth to mouth to some squished spider so that we can see some sun and get back out golfing, or whatever we might call it, before we kill each other on-line

[el tigre]

Well, well - this thread has certainly been busy!

Personally, unless it is clearly marked GUR I prefer to simply "play it as it lies", otherwise the definition of GUR becomes just too subjective. Sure my ball has landed in a divot in the fairway - but it has also hit a rake instead of going into a sand trap and bounced off a tree in the woods and landed with a perfect lie in the middle of the fairway. C'est la vie!

But Gary, back to my pet peeve - the "lost ball" rule. I like Dan's idea that a lost ball or OB should be treated as a lateral hazard - in fact, I would be in favour of changing that rule for EVERYONE, not just recreational players. Loss of stroke AND distance seems like an excessive penalty for not finding your ball or for shanking one - even for the pros. Surely a penalty stroke and a drop out in the rough would be enough. So Gary, I would be interested to hear your personal opinion on whether that rule should be changed for all, and why or why not.

[Gary Hill]

I am against it for many reasons.

Lost means you dont know where it is. So how could you possibly take a drop at that place.

Moving it? To where? Out of the woods? To the deep rough? All the way to the short rough? All the way to the fairway?

Take the hazard Rule as an example:

If you hit you ball into a water hazard, you are allow to put another ball into play BEHIND the hazard. You are NEVER allowed to negotiate the hazard without making a sroke.

Moving the ball somehere without making a stroke goes against the very spirit of the game.

What would be the point of trying to be accurate. No one would worry about "flailing away" with a driver at every hole. You could just take a drop anyway.

The U.S. Open would have been a joke. Players hitting into 3 foot fescue and then walking over to the fairway and dropping???

There is no guarentee that you will hit your second ball from the tee nearly as well as you hit your first ball.

There is also no guarentee that you will not lose the second ball or hit the seond ball out of bounds.

In this case, taking the penalty would be much more advantageous than actually playing the game.

If golf were a matter of "predicting" what probably would happen, there would be no need to play.

[Kilroy]

Gary has made some great points. The rules can be followed in day to day play, and as the "keeper of the game" he stood up to all of us.

I probably never should have gotten involved in this thread, since it may have some believing that my opinions carry some "official" weight. I assure you they are my opinions alone and I am posting here as "one of the players" not as an OG official. When it comes to the rules, that is Gary's territory, and he represents the RCGA first.
The rules may never be modified, so all of us debating which ones get broken routinely, and how we would change them if we could, is kinda pointless. Worst of all, it may lead some into playing differently than they yould have otherwise, because we said it was "OK", which would not be good at all.

[el tigre]

Dan:

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you when you say that debating the merits of the rules are pointless. The rules in EVERY sport - including golf - are constantly reviewed by the governing bodies and occasionally changed or updated. Some of those changes are often influenced by "public pressure" - i.e, healthy debate by the players, fans and the media. OK, this forum does't have a direct pipeline to the RCGA Rules Committee - but don't underestimate the power of word-of-mouth advertising.

I referee broomball in the winter, and I know that "on the ice" I have to apply, and if necessary explain and defend, ALL of the rules in the book - even the ones I would like to see changed. But off the ice, I have no problem debating the merits of some of the rules with the players - as long as it is done respectfully.

Gary:

I take your point regarding where you would drop for a "lost ball". I certainly wasn't proposing that players be allowed to drop one in the fairway. I was thinking a rule could be crafted along the lines of Exception 1 to Rule 27-1 except using OB instead of "water hazard" - but even that would be difficult to apply for a lost ball where you truly have no idea where it went.

On the other hand, such a rule along theses lines could be used for a ball OB. Provided there was "reasonable evidence" that the ball is OB, dropping within a club length of where the ball crossed the OB line would still put him in the deep rough on any course I've ever played. And I would submit that you still have to "negotiate" OB when it is only a club length to one side of you.

Why do I think this should be changed? In every rulebook, including the Rules of Golf, there are some general principles and assumptions underlying them. GENERALLY speaking, in golf the sanction for poor shotmaking (i.e, landing a water hazard, in an unplayable lie, etc) is one penalty stroke. That seems fair. GENERALLY speaking, two penalty strokes are used when a player gains an unfair advantage, like playing a wrong ball, moving or deflecting ball, etc.,(in a word, cheating). That also seems fair. The sanction of stroke AND distance for OB (and lost ball, for that matter) is effectively about the same as that for cheating, but applied to poor shotmaking. To me, it doesn't fit. IMO the player should be penalized, but in a more appropriate manner. I can see where writing such a rule would be difficult for lost ball (though perhaps not impossible), but a better OB rule should be fairly simple.

[Gary Hill]

Your point regarding "discussing" the Rules is well taken. Every single question that comes to the R.C.G.A. is logged. They constantly review the number of questions about a certain Rule and use this information when determining which Rules need to be changed.

I agree that LOST and O.B. are two completely different situations. I can think of no equitable way to modify the Lost Ball Rule.
I agree that it may be possible to modify the O.B. Rule.

I disagree with your assumption that there is a sanction for poor shotmaking. There is no such sanction.

The Rules are NOT intended to be punishment.

The GENERAL penalty is two strokes. There are VERY few penalties that are one stroke.

The GENERAL principle behind "relief" Rules is to allow the player to continue play. If a ball in hit into a deep water hazard, some device must be enacted to allow the player to continue play (eg. dropping a ball behind the water hazard). If a player hits a ball into an unplayable position, some device must be enacted to allow the player to continue play.

Both of these situations require that the ball is still on the golf course.

By definition, a ball lost or O.B. is NOT on the golf course.

The Rules position on LOST and O.B. is that the player cannot CONTINUE play on the course. He can only "start over".

[chad]

I would say that I have to agree with Gary on this one!

[St Andrew]

OK, so I hit my ball 260 yards in the rough, no provisional. Can't find it. Who really expects or wants me to go back to the tee? It's great to say "hit a provisional" But I have thought my ball would be easy to find many times when it was not, and I can't hit a provisional every time I don't see it in the fairway.
I'm sorry but this is just not realistic in 2002. Maybe in Scottland in 1703, it was practical, but not on today's packed courses!

[Gary Hill]

Please explain why you cant hit a provisional when you hit it 260 yards into the rough.

[St Andrew]

Well, I did not say I could not hit a provisional. I suppose I should be crystal clear.
I DID NOT HIT A PROVISIONAL. I could have, but I didn't. Nothing stopped or prevented me from hitting a provisional, except that i was sure in my own mind, that I would find it there where I saw it go into the rough.
I would not appreciate a playing partner hitting a provisional every time he cannot see the ball from the tee.
So, that is THE ONLY SOLUTION aside from returning to the tee and holding up play. That is why we need a modification that makes more sense on busy courses full of recreational players who will not return to the tee in this situation, but who still wish to play by the rules. That rule (and others mentioned) is impractical.

[Gary Hill]

Yes, it is impractical to hit a provinsional ball EVERYTIME you cannot physically see your ball in the fairway.

If you do hit your drive 260 into the rough without hitting a provisional ball, then YOU are the problem, not the RULES.

You have to use some common sense. ( that's why I facetiously asked the question)

Rule 27 says: ... the player may play a provisional ball.

However, in the 2000 Rules, Section 1 was changed to include the phase .....SHOULD play a provisional ball... to make it more clear that provisional balls should be played when in doubt.

Here are MY points:

1. Walking back to the tee infreqently when your ball "disappears" on the fairway is not the main cause of long rounds.

2. If you find the tee ball and it is unplayable, one option is to go back to the tee. Would you ban this also?

3. Recreational players do not play by the Rules and very seldom return to the tee.

4. I have NEVER seen in instance where playing by the Rules held up play.

re: I would not appreciate a playing partner hitting....

A “competitor’’ is a player in a stroke competition. A “fellow-competitor’’ is any person with whom the competitor plays. Neither is partner of the other.

A “partner’’ is a player associated with another player on the same side.

[Kilroy]

Recreational players do not play by the Rules and very seldom return to the tee.

That would be the problem. no?

[Gary Hill]

No, that isnt the problem if we are talking about time wasted walking back to the tee.

I consider recreational players not walking back to the tee a "gift from God".

[GrantTotten]

So if people walking back to the tee, playing provisional balls, or following the rules are the causes of slow rounds, what ARE the main causes of slow play?

Grant