Where to drop the ball

[oneputt]

Hey all, I have another rules question. The questions regards hitting a ball out of play from the fairway.

Scenario: It's a par 4 and I'm hitting my second shot from the fairway. The ball slices off to the right into a bunch of tall trees and bounces around in the woods. The first thing I do is drop a provisional ball from where I hit my last shot and advance the ball down the fairway. So I now walk ahead to see if I can find and play the first ball I hit. I go into the woods and find the first ball, but it's an unplayable lie. I noticed that the ball is about 60 yards closer to the hole (still in the woods) from the point it entered into the woods.

So here is the question: Where do I drop and play that ball? Do I drop it where it entered the woods, or can I walk straight out of the woods where I found it (60 yards ahead of where it went in), take a one stroke penalty and play it from there?

Thanks!

[jvincent]

Quoting directly from Rule 28.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.

The ball may be lifted and cleaned when proceeding under this Rule.

[DCH]

When you say 'out of play' do you mean Out of Bounds?
In which case, your provisional is now your 'ball in play' and your 1st is dead

[oneputt]

No, ball is not OB, just unplayable in the woods. So, from what I understand my only choice is to drop a ball from where my last one was played, or two club lengths from where I found it in the woods. So if there was an opening through some trees within two club lengths of where I found my uplayable ball, I could take a drop in those woods?

[Kilroy]

Yes. Penalty one stroke.

[oneputt]

Thanks, OK then, one more question... ...and then I'll be a pro at knowing what to do when I shank it into the woods! So I decide to rehit from where I played the last ball because I assume the first original ball is long gone. Do I "drop" a ball nearest to where I played my last shot, or can I "place" it there. The rule above simply says "play a ball"....??

Thanks again!

[el tigre]

Thanks, OK then, one more question... Do I "drop" a ball nearest to where I played my last shot, or can I "place" it there. The rule above simply says "play a ball"....??

You would place it, since you are trying to get "as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played". The chances of doing that with a drop are pretty slim.

[spidey]

20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made
When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:
(a) On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the teeing ground. It may be played from anywhere within the teeing ground and it may be teed.
(b) Through the Green and in a Hazard: The ball to be played must be dropped.
(c) On the Putting Green: The ball to be played must be placed.
Penalty for Breach of Rule 20-5:
Match play — Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.

Not placed. Dropped.

[DCH]

You would place it, since you are trying to get "as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played". The chances of doing that with a drop are pretty slim.

No you must drop
Rule 20-5 b
Throught the green - The ball to be played must be dropped.
A good rule of thumb - place on the green, drop elsewhere - on the teeing ground, you may tee up

[oneputt]

Right on, thanks guys. Excellent forum, good advice.

[Gary Hill]

A good rule of thumb - place on the green

Can anybody tell me the Rules that break the "rule of thumb" and allow a ball to be dropped on a putting green?

[jvincent]

Can anybody tell me the Rules that break the "rule of thumb" and allow a ball to be dropped on a putting green?

Without looking at the rules, I'm pretty sure that relief from a lateral water hazard can result in a drop on green.

[spidey]

Seems as though you may drop your ball on the green if you declare it unplayable and select option b or c.

Rule 28

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

[spidey]

20-6
A ball incorrectly substituted, dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules but not played may be lifted, without penalty, and the player must then proceed correctly.

15-2. Substituted Ball
If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules, that substituted ball is not a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play. If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player makes a stroke at a wrongly substituted ball, he incurs the penalty prescribed by the applicable Rule and in stroke play, must play out the hole with the substituted ball.

...so, while you may not do it without penalty, if you substitute a ball and drop it on the green and play it, it becomes the ball in play. I suppose this is not technically one of the exceptions, but it is dropping the ball on the green and holing out with the ball, so according to the rules, it is possible.

[g8r]

Stupid question:
Why is it that you can hit a provisional and only use it if your original ball is not found or OB?
It would seem to make sense to use your provisional if your original was unplayable since one of the options is to go back to last spot and rehit. If that is the option you choose, why not allow the provisional to be used? I don't get it.
Aside from saving time, this gives the EXACT same result and penalty. And the argument that if you go back to the spot you can shank it again doesn't really make sense, cause you could just as easily have shanked your provisional.

[el tigre]

It would seem to make sense to use your provisional if your original was unplayable since one of the options is to go back to last spot and rehit. If that is the option you choose, why not allow the provisional to be used? I don't get it.

You are supposed to pick which option you are going to choose BEFORE the shot - not after. It would be unfair to allow you to choose the "rehit from the last spot" option AFTER you have already played that shot.

[NoBack]

Stupid question:
Why is it that you can hit a provisional and only use it if your original ball is not found or OB?
It would seem to make sense to use your provisional if your original was unplayable since one of the options is to go back to last spot and rehit. If that is the option you choose, why not allow the provisional to be used? I don't get it.
Aside from saving time, this gives the EXACT same result and penalty. And the argument that if you go back to the spot you can shank it again doesn't really make sense, cause you could just as easily have shanked your provisional.

This is one of our "local rules" on the OG Tour for that very same reason. It speeds up play.

[el tigre]

This is one of our "local rules" on the OG Tour for that very same reason. It speeds up play.

It also violates one of the primary principles of the Rules of Golf. Whenever the Rules allow the player to make a choice (i.e., play it as it lies or declare unplayable, play it as it lies or take free relief, drop or rehit, etc.), the choice must be made BEFORE playing the shot. You don't get to try one option first, and if you don't like the result then pick the other one.

[spidey]

This is one of our "local rules" on the OG Tour for that very same reason. It speeds up play.

...however you do agree that it contravenes the Rules of Golf.

[NoBack]

I agree but all local rules do as well.

ps..... I havent seen anyone use this one yet in any of our events

[el tigre]

I agree but all local rules do as well.

I think you mean that all of the OG Tour local rules contravene the Rules of Golf. There are plenty of suggested local rules in the back of the rulebook that do not.

ps..... I havent seen anyone use this one yet in any of our events

Huh?? Every time someone hits a provisional and then finds their original ball, they have used your local rule. Even if they chose to play their original ball or take a drop, they are making that choice after already trying out their third option of rehitting from the previous spot.

[jvincent]

Huh?? Every time someone hits a provisional and then finds their original ball, they have used your local rule. Even if they chose to play their original ball or take a drop, they are making that choice after already trying out their third option of rehitting from the previous spot.

The act of hitting a provisional does not violate any rule. If they don't find the original ball, they can then use the provisional.

If they find the original and subsequently declare it unplayable and then hit the provisional, they have violated the rule.

[g8r]

But that is not any different from not looking for your ball and going straight to the provisional? Is there a difference between not finding your original ball or finding it in an unplayable situation? I don't think there is.
At that point it can come down to dumb luck...basically you MAY be further penalized for hitting your ball not as far into the woods as another person.

[jvincent]

But that is not any different from not looking for your ball and going straight to the provisional? Is there a difference between not finding your original ball or finding it in an unplayable situation? I don't think there is.

This is where the rules are specific.

You can hit a provisional if you think your ball is lost or OB. If you find it, then you cannot use the provisional as such.

If after finding it, you decide it is unplayable, you have to hit another off the tee.

This is what the rules say. It is, in practice, not what most people do for casual play.

["Richard"]

what is the answer garry?

[g8r]

I dont think there is any question as to what the answer is...that was long ago explained and accepted...its a question of WHY the rules are written that way...normally rules are put in place to prevent someone from doing something to gain an advantage...and this rule doesn't seem to do that (at least not in my mind)...I'm going to assume this is just one of those "thats the way it is" rules and leave it at that.

[el tigre]

its a question of WHY the rules are written that way...normally rules are put in place to prevent someone from doing something to gain an advantage...and this rule doesn't seem to do that (at least not in my mind)...

Hmm, thought I had done that above but maybe I'll try again.

I hit a provisional and then find my original ball. I now have 4 choices I can make for my next stroke:

1) play the original ball as it lies
2) declare original ball unplayable, rehit from the last spot with a penalty stroke
3) declare original ball unplayable, drop within 2 club-lengths with a penalty stroke
4) declare original ball unplayable, drop on a line extending from the hole to the ball with a penalty stroke.

Wouldn't it be a huge advantage to me if I could try all 4 options first and then pick the result that turned out the best? Of course it would! Well, playing my provisional doesn't go quite that far, but at least I get to see the result of Option #2 first before I make my decision.

[NoBack]

I think you mean that all of the OG Tour local rules contravene the Rules of Golf. There are plenty of suggested local rules in the back of the rulebook that do not.

Huh?? Every time someone hits a provisional and then finds their original ball, they have used your local rule. Even if they chose to play their original ball or take a drop, they are making that choice after already trying out their third option of rehitting from the previous spot.

What are talking about? If my ball goes into the trees, I am supposed to hit provisional . Right?
Ok so we agree i can hit a provisional . Right?
good, now we walk up to my first ball and look for it. Find it behind a tree with no backswing. Got it so far? good. I cant swing at it and call it unplayable because there is no where else but trees to take a drop within 2 clubs. So i pick it up, go pick up the proivisional and walk back to the tee. right so far??? by the rules??? I think so far so good.


OUR local rule is only to be used to save time on hitting a third ball from the tee. Plain and simple - nothing more nothing less.

[NoBack]

I dont think there is any question as to what the answer is...that was long ago explained and accepted...its a question of WHY the rules are written that way...normally rules are put in place to prevent someone from doing something to gain an advantage...and this rule doesn't seem to do that (at least not in my mind)...I'm going to assume this is just one of those "thats the way it is" rules and leave it at that.

Yep

[el tigre]

OUR local rule is only to be used to save time on hitting a third ball from the tee. Plain and simple - nothing more nothing less.

Steve, I guess you just don't get it.

In golf, you are not supposed to be allowed to choose between a shot you have already taken (i.e., the provisional) and one you haven't attempted yet (i.e., playing it as it lies, taking a drop, etc). It's a pretty fundamental principle of the game.