driver shaft stiffness

[rancherJ]

In general should driver/woods shafts be a stiffer flex than the rest of the set because of length?
ie if I use a regular flex in my irons would I be advised to hit a slightly stiffer flex with my woods?
j

[BC MIST]

In general should driver/woods shafts be a stiffer flex than the rest of the set because of length?
ie if I use a regular flex in my irons would I be advised to hit a slightly stiffer flex with my woods?
j

If your swing characteristics with the driver are the same as with the irons then having the same flex designation in the woods, as you have in the irons, or vica versa, may be fine.

The designation I am referring to would come from the charts of a frequency analyzer, not the shaft labels on the shafts themselves. As has been reported here before the flex designations on the shaft labels are generally wrong, and out by as much as two and occasionally 3 flexes(ie., a labelled stiff is really a ladies) and are almost always a lot softer then indicated. There is no way, and I emphasize no way, that you could ever compare a stock Callaway "S" shaft in a driver to a stock "R" shaft in the irons, because these letters seldom are what they say they are.

The FA never lies but OEM companies do.

I would treat your woods and your irons as two completely separate entities. Get fit for one and then get fit for the other. The shaft flexes should be very close, but not always.

[jbrace]

BC Mist,

I'm always intrigued and respectful of your knowledge of such things. Like rancherJ, I have been wondering if I require different shaft flexes between my irons and driver/woods. I currently have stiff in everything, but my game has changed a bit in that I no longer swing full speed with my irons. I almost always swing easy with my irons because I have a lot more control and just find it more comfortable. Yet with my woods, especially my driver, I tend to swing faster. So, I am considering switching to a regular flex for my irons so I do not lose too much distance and shot height. I thought the Rifles in 5.5 would be good, but I'm looking for something a little lighter like in the 95-105g range. I have even considered graphite, but again not sure of the flex. (Would I need a stiff in graphite because they are so much lighter and my swing speed would increase slightly as a result?) I am also considering re-shafting my driver with something a little lighter and softer than my current Speeder 652 in stiff. Any suggestions?

P.S. Sorry if this seems like a "thread jack" but I thought the reply may be useful to rancherJ as well.

[jvincent]

I'm not BC, but I just had all my clubs checked on a frequency analyser so I can offer some help.

As BC points out, no to S-flexes are the same. I measured all the drivers I have, grip on, all at 43.5" D0-D2 swingweights. My NVS65 shafted driver measured out at 254cpm while my BiMatrx measured out at 261 cpm. A Rifle 4.5 was 254 cpm. My current favourite is has a tipped Mercury shaft in it that measures 244 cpm.

I also have two sets of irons, same heads, same SW, same length. One has flighted 5.5 Rifles and the other has Air Rifles (S).

I can't remember the iron numbers off the top of my head, but the Air Rifles are definitely softer than the 5.5s. If you're looking for a nice lightweight steel shaft, consider the Air Rifles. I've been hitting them really well this year.

[jbrace]

Wow, I'm really surprised at the Rifle 4.5 cpm's - 254??? So basically, it's as stiff as an NVS65? And Royal Precision claims these are a medium-regular shaft. I know that Taylormade was using a Rifle 5.5 as their "stock" steel shaft in their 200 series and that was supposed to be a stiff. I'm confused. I know the basic premise behind CPM, but generally, should a shaft not measure at least 260 to considered "stiff"?

I had a look at the Rifle Airlites and they look like they might be a good option for me, but you can only get them in .370 tip, at least from Golfworks anyways, and I need .355.

[jvincent]

Wow, I'm really surprised at the Rifle 4.5 cpm's - 254??? So basically, it's as stiff as an NVS65? And Royal Precision claims these are a medium-regular shaft. I know that Taylormade was using a Rifle 5.5 as their "stock" steel shaft in their 200 series and that was supposed to be a stiff. I'm confused. I know the basic premise behind CPM, but generally, should a shaft not measure at least 260 to considered "stiff"?

I had a look at the Rifle Airlites and they look like they might be a good option for me, but you can only get them in .370 tip, at least from Golfworks anyways, and I need .355.

I was a little surprised as well.

One thing I forgot to mention is that the NVS65 is actually tipped 3/4" so mine is actually stiffer than it would normally measure. The other thing to remember is that at the same SW, the head on the NVS shafted driver is heavier than the Rifle shafted driver because to shafts themselves are very different weights.

This is the whole problem with flex designations. There is really no rule for what stiff really is and there a lot of variables. My experiment at least had length and swingweight as a constant.

Regarding the AirLites, if you're looking for new shafts, you should consider getting your irons bored out to accept a .370 shaft. There are lots more options available to you then and it's quite easy to do.

[jbrace]

This is the whole problem with flex designations. There is really no rule for what stiff really is and there a lot of variables.

The other thing to add to the mix are these frequency analyzers and wheter or not they all measure the same. Are the calibrated correctly? For example, the Fujikura site says that the Vista Pro 70 in A, R and S flex measures 255, 265 and 275 CPM respectively. Either these are not accurate, or I would not read too much into that NVS65 measuring 254 (no offense). And that's a tipped shaft, so that should make it even stiffer than its supposed to be like you said. I could see it measuring around 275, no less.

[Chieflongtee]

Take some leave some. Do the clubs still feel fine to you after modifying your tempo? Are you shooting offline? If not leave them alone. Be careful when comparing butt frequencies. They are what they are i.e a butt measurement with the shaft clamped 5 inches at the butt end. You can have 10 shafts with the same butt frequency yet with different playing charactristics. Zone profiling with a frequency meter or a NF4 does not lie. I'll have more later.

[jvincent]

I was wondering when Andre would chime in.

The frequency analyser in question was a Club Scout IV so the numbers should be pretty accurate.

According to the Aldila website, the reading for the NVS is pretty much dead on considering it is grip on and tipped. They list the NVS-65 as being 255 cpm, but they don't give specifics on clamp length and tip weight.

We did the measurements as a first pass exercise to see how the various drivers at my disposal compared. In practice, I actually hit the softest one the most consistently but from a feel perspective the NVS and the Mercury are nearly indistinguishable to me. The BiMatrx was definitely boardy.

Still more data to collect though.

[jbrace]

OK, maybe I do not understand the concept of CPM like I thought . I thought it was measured all the same for everything. i.e. the shaft is clamped in the same place (the butt) and the tip (without any sort of weight added to it) is bent a certain distance and then let go and then they measure how fast (or how many times)the shaft "reflexes" (is that the correct term) as a result. The only variable to the test should be the shaft itself, should it not? If different manufactures, clubmakers, etc. are conducting the analysis differently, does that not put us back to square one?

WRT my iron shafts. I'm not hitting them offline. It's just the loss of distance and height are to swallow. I've gained accuracy by slowing down my swing speed/tempo but I am now consistently 1.5 - 2 clubs shorter than my buddies (used to be 160 with the 7, now I'm 145). I'm just wondering if I would benefit more from a R flex in the irons. Yeah, yeah, I know I want it all...

[Chieflongtee]

OK, maybe I do not understand the concept of CPM like I thought . I thought it was measured all the same for everything. i.e. the shaft is clamped in the same place (the butt) and the tip (without any sort of weight added to it) is bent a certain distance and then let go and then they measure how fast (or how many times)the shaft "reflexes" (is that the correct term) as a result.

You're right except there is a weight attached to the tip. You can attach the actual head itself.

[jbrace]

So that is to say then that if I took a Vista Pro 70 in "A" flex, it would measure the same stiffness as the NVS-65 in stiff? It's interesting because I have a Vista Pro 70, stiff, in my backup driver and this (supposedly) plays stiffer than the NVS-65 in X flex. Also interesting, or perhpas frustrating to the average consumer, is how different manufactures recommend different swing speeds and/or driver carry for certain flexes as they are measured in CPM. i.e. Aldila recommends 100-110 mph (me) for their NVS-65 in S flex, which again is measured at 255 CPM. Fuji recommends a muc lower, 70-80 mph for their A flex? If CPM's are indeed the "true" measure of a shafts stiffness, perhaps manufacturers should completely do away with the whole "A flex through XXXX flex" and simply put the CPM number on the shaft. Or does that make too much sense??? Anyways, I'm getting in over my head here, I think. But I may have found a good shaft to try in my next driver (thanks jvincent).

[jvincent]

The problem is that butt frequency, and swing speed for that matter, doesn't tell the whole story.

A bunch of clubmakers have been working on zone-profiling shafts to guage the relative stiffness of the different sections of a staff.

A smooth swinging 100 mph is a lot different from a short-fast 100 mph in terms of shaft loading so it's unlikely that the same shaft will work equally well for those two golfers.

Which is why I have rotated through a LOT of different shafts in the past few years.

[Chieflongtee]

Well said Monsieur Vincent. Jbrace take a look at the graph in the following thread. Notice the curve on the yellow one. So even though different shafts have the same butt cpm they will play different. Also frequency meters are not calibrated from one company to the next. All club scouts are calibrated to other club Scouts. Some use 2.5 inch butt clamp and others 5 inch butt clamp. Mercury measures all their shafts with a 205 gram weight. See the confusion.

[jbrace]

A smooth swinging 100 mph is a lot different from a short-fast 100 mph in terms of shaft loading so it's unlikely that the same shaft will work equally well for those two golfers.

Good point. This makes sense.

Jbrace take a look at the graph in the following thread.

Where exactly am I looking?

Also frequency meters are not calibrated from one company to the next.

There you have it. This must explain why there is such a big difference between, say, Fujikura's 255 CPM A flex and Aldila's 255 S flex. I could see there being a slight difference in CPM's between certain "S" flex shafts, but 20-25?

At the end of the day, there is no better substitue for hitting balls with different shafts and observing the results by feel and eye. It would be nice if they came up with a reliable system or machine that could measure one's swing speed, tempo, etc. and spit out an appropriate shaft(s) for the swing. I find the launch monitors somewhat inconsistent. They are a good "starting point" but I would never recommend dropping hundreds of $$$ on a driver based on the launch monitor. But that's a different thread...

Thanks for all this input guys.

[jvincent]

It would be nice if they came up with a reliable system or machine that could measure one's swing speed, tempo, etc. and spit out an appropriate shaft(s) for the swing.

I think that's what the True Temper Shaft Lab is supposed to do, but I've never actually tried it.

http://www.truetemper.com/shaftlab/index2.html

[BC MIST]

Finding a shaft with the right butt frequency is only a very small fraction of search for the perfect shaft that will give you maximum ACCURACY first, and then distance. IMO, a big difference in butt frequency will NOT change the distance the ball goes very much, but will change the accuracy. Having the correct weight of shaft for your swing characteristics is as important as the shaft butt flex.

I have done only a little experimentation but what I have found is the the tip frequency of the shaft has a greater influence on my ball flight characteristics than butt frequency. For example, I know that the SK Fiber Lite Revolution "S" shaft suits my swing and is not too stiff. I also know that the Aldila NV "S" does not suit my swing as it is way too stiff. But, the Lite Revolution has a higher BUTT frequency than the NV. Huh??? The NV is hugely stiffer in the tip section than the Lite Revolution and it is because of this that my ball flight is lower, I have distance loss and it feels boardy. Similar results were found with a Harrisson and another Aldila shaft. I have put a Mercury Savage S shaft, which is stiffer than the NV in the tip, in my SMT Spectrum, but I have not hit it often enough to make any meaningful observations about its performance, however, it is better than the NV. Go figure

I have not profiled the Accuflex VS339 "S" shaft that I have used in the 455 Deep Bore for the last year, but I would guess that while it may be butt stiff, it is also closer to the Lite Revolution in the tip section than it is to the NV, as I hit this combination very well, and when I miss, it's me, not the shaft.

[Chieflongtee]

Good point. This makes sense.


Where exactly am I looking?

Sorry about that.


http://forum.ottawagolf.com/showthre...shaft+profiles