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  1. #1
    Lob Wedge R-22 is on a distinguished road
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    Thoughts on Repiaring the Decline of Golf

    On the heel’s of the “Golfsmith/Golftown restructuring” Post. Since that Post evolved into The Decline of Golf spectrum. My 2-bits on the future of golf. The courses like Pebble Beach, Hilton Head, Pinehurst#2 etc. Will never see there bookings drop. If Golf Equipment went to $10,000 for a set of clubs these courses would still be Booked. So let’s Eliminate these courses from the discussion! Since the time it takes to play a round is a constant on any course also Eliminate it! The Equipment you use is up to you (there’s no rule against using older equipment) “as long as the Grooves are acceptable”. So let’s Eliminate equipment as well! The CO$T of Clothes & Shoes is also totally up to you. So let’s Eliminate them as well! The Beverage Cart & Resturant again this is up to you. Some courses are $8 for a beer. Again this is one to Eliminate! Not sure where Golf Carts fit into this discussion? In Florida their included in your Fee so the Pace of play is maintained. Here it’s like stupid expensive! Something like $9 per Cheek. This goes Hand in Hand with the course design ie ¼ mile to the next hole so if you choose to walk the Carts blow by you & golf through. Personally I think everyone should walk unless you have a physical issue or are Supremely Mature. Hey Guys I want to rent a Golf Cart, Not an Impala. So lets Eliminate this also. Now were getting to actual CO$T of Golf. Perishable Products in Golf. The “BALL”, $60 a dozen or $15 for 3 dozen? I’ve played several rounds with the same ball. I’ve also lost up to 5 balls on a single round. The “GLOVE”, $18 or $5? I’ve had some FJ gloves Decompose after a few rounds. Not too tight on grip pressure or friction, just a little sweat. Bought a Synthetic Glove this year $7, got about 30 rounds out of it. Balls & Glove for a year lets figure $100 “your mileage may vary”. GREEN-FEES from $100 to $50. On these courses I had better not see any DEAD Spots, green, fairway or rough. Yet this year I’ve played a few courses that have had all three. I’m not paying for the “Prestige” of these courses I only want to pay for the Condition of the course. If the condition is down then the green-fee should reflect that. GREEN-FEES from $50 to $20. This is where the rubber meets the road. Many of these courses don’t have plentiful water resourses. Yet this year I’ve played a few at $45 with burnt fairways & crusty greens. Hit the green with a 7I & the ball bounced 10’ in the air. I feel sorry for the Members that layed out some serious cash & have to play those conditions all year. Rebate on your member Fees LOL good luck with that. Value is the key here. In today’s world not to many people have vast sums of disposable money and time. Do you remember how the CFL shot itself in the foot? They thought they were losing money from people not paying admission to local games, so they implemented the BLACK-OUT for televised games. Attendance continued to drop and they lost an entire generation of fans. Their cure, DROP ticket prices & bring them back. Guess what, it worked. Yet the Golf Courses won’t bend a knee. They see their attendance dropping and do nothing about it. Years ago there were only a few courses, the parking lot was always full & if you didn’t have a booking you were not going to play. Today you drive up to a lot of courses with ¾ of the lot open. Supply & Demand is telling you your Green-Fee is too high. What action do they take? Nine & Dine. I don’t know about you but what if the SENS sold you at ticket for ½ the game & the last ½ they sat you down for a dinner. I really don’t see this approach as a cure, it’s a band-aid at best. Yes it generates some income for the courses but not for Golf. If a guy takes his girlfriend to a Nine & Dine, of course they will have a nice date. If she likes golfing she will probably buy a set of clubs but will also spend a BOATLOAD of money on Clothes. So your Nine & Dine is the answer for the Equipment & Clothing suppliers! Your courses however are still no further ahead. The Real Revenue in this scenario goes to Others. What I’m getting at here is that IF Golf Course Owners are truly interested in growing the game they need to DROP the admission price. If the Parking lot is not FULL your Greenfee is too high. Yes at year end you made a small profit & hope next year is better. Do a little generic Math, if your Parking lot is full (4-fees every 10-min for 8-hrs.) that’s 192-fees. If Your Fee is $40 & your lot is near empty, lets say 60-4 somes and compare. {{{{{ 60 x $40 = $2400.00 now look at 192 x $25 = $4800.00 }}}}} For the Math deficient, dropping the greenfee by $15 Doubles your Revenue. You can’t tell me that people don’t like playing golf. My first round I was 16, my older brothers never laughed so hard for so long in their lives. I think I was at 100 by the 3rd hole, but never ever thought of throwing in the towel. Somewhere around #15 it happened, near exhausted & sweating I finally took an easy swing & SMACKED the 3 wood from heaven. One good shot is all it takes and anyone is going to LOVE playing golf. So now that you’ve enticed some people onto the course, Why aren’t they coming back? It’s STARING you in the Face, yet you choose to blame other conditions ie the Economy, Time it takes, Equipment costs. The Plan & Simple TRUTH is it must be your EGO. My course is better than his so I should charge more. Even though both of you are just making enough to stay afloat. Golf NEEDS Owners to Step UP & Compete. It’s Unfortunate that this burden falls on your shoulders and the Real Revenue of Golf goes to Equipment & Clothing Manufacturers. Any Rebate or Profit sharing from them? Not a chance! This is where Growing the Game of Golf is BROKEN and ALL of you know it! Is it the Golf Course Owners responsibility to drop their price to grow revenue at his course so that the Manufactures can see their Revenue Rise? Personally I think it has to start there. If people won’t pay the greenfee, it’s the END for the Entire Industry. So there you have it, just my opinion. The SOLUTION: “One year Trial” At the End of this year, ALL Golf Courses “Under $100 Greenfee” Rollback the Green-Fees 40% ish. I can think of NO reason the Parking lots wouldn’t be full. The Courses Revenue would Increase, The Manufacturers Revenue would Increase and there would be a lot more people enjoying a truly great game. EVERYONE WINS! One Year TRIAL: to GROW the Game of GOLF, I can’t see anyone losing anything. Of course that next year when the Price$ are Returned to normal some people will stay away. At the end of Year Two perhaps the revenue lost by the Manufactures will WAKE them UP. Into some form of PROFIT Sharing for the Local Golf Course Owner who is really the source of there PROFIT. Instead of giving it to the Pros for there endorsment. The Pros should earn their money on the course. If the Manufacturers ceased paying all that money for endorsments & rolled it back into the Growing the Game "Investment" wouldn't that also be a WIN-WIN? Just my thoughts on what it will take to GROW a Great Game. Yes there are a lot of other parameters but I think this are at the Heart of it. Please don't """Crittersize""" my thoughts but lets hear your Ideas.

  2. #2
    Lob Wedge R-22 is on a distinguished road
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    Tried to EDIT POST. "didn't change" wanted to insert line breaks. Pretty tough to read as is. Help with Editing Please.

  3. #3
    Shotmaker Johnyc is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by R-22 View Post
    Tried to EDIT POST. "didn't change" wanted to insert line breaks. Pretty tough to read as is. Help with Editing Please.
    Market forces will reshape the landscape in the next 3-5 years. My guess, at least one of the local private clubs becomes semi private (members and green fee players). Further, I expect to see at least 2-3 clubs go under. The market is simply too saturated and the game is failing to attract new players at a rate that equals or exceeds the rate of attrition. No, golf isn't going to go away, but the local golf market will change.

  4. #4
    Postmaster General big mac is on a distinguished road big mac's Avatar
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    WOW that was one long editorial The funny thing is---most of it is right on the money !!!!!

    You are going to get a few "elite" contradictions here but they are in the minority---and don't realize it themselves.

    I had a lengthy conversation with the owner of one of the leading management firms yesterday and I think you may see a return to "quality" over the next few years. I am pretty sure that the poorly run business and overpriced merchandise will be a thing of the past over the next few years.

    It has to happen--it is common sense.
    Does the 2nd hole-n-one come easier ?

  5. #5
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    I waded through the formatting. Sorry, but your analysis and solution are very simplistic.

    Ignoring the fact that low greens fees are not a guarantee to have lots of golfers, the problem with your "drop greens fees" solution is that you end up in a race to the bottom. Sure, it would be nice to play cheap golf all the time but at some point you've got to give something up.

    The first thing to go will be course conditions. It costs a lot of money to keep a golf course in good condition. If your greens fees or membership fees can't pay the maintenance bills then guess what happens? People stop coming to play and you've made your problem even worse.
    Not fat anymore. Need to get better at golf now!

  6. #6
    9 Iron rajah is on a distinguished road
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    We already have cheap prices for beginners, just go at Twilight times. Sure it cost to keep courses in good condition but they are making money. Yes it's expensive at prime time, for a family of four one is looking at $180 for green fees add another $70 in a meal so it's an expensive day out!

    The economist sums it up nicely.

    "Why are fewer Americans playing golf? There are three main reasons.

    First, golf’s calm pace may no longer fit in with modern lifestyles. It can take more than four hours to play a full round of 18 holes. And disappearing to the golf course for half the weekend is not compatible with modern attitudes to child-rearing.

    Second, while golf may have managed to shake off some of its elitist image, America’s troubled economy is once more making it a pursuit of the wealthy. Middle and lower-income golfers have seen their pay packets shrink, hurting membership numbers at mid-range golf courses. Some public courses have been closed by local governments making spending cuts.

    Third, golf has become harder to play. Since the 1990s golf-course designers have taken to building longer, tougher courses in order to put golfers and their equipment to the test. The sport’s growing difficulty and its 200-page rulebook make it a tough sell to new players.

    In the past stars have had the power to reignite interest in the game. Tiger Woods drew an unprecedented number of newcomers to the sport. But he fell from grace and no new star has emerged to take his place.

    Instead, in a bid to renew golf’s appeal, faster, easier versions of the sport are being invented. Foot golf, a hybrid of football and golf and top golf, which involves hitting gold balls onto huge, coloured targets in outdoor sports bars, are two experiments.

    Will they succeed in reviving the sports popularity? That, as a golfer would say, is a long shot.

  7. #7
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    Sure it cost to keep courses in good condition but they are making money.
    Well, if they are making money we shouldn't be seeing any course closures any time soon.
    Not fat anymore. Need to get better at golf now!

  8. #8
    9 Iron rajah is on a distinguished road
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    Mismanagement and greed and the other reasons stated here.

  9. #9
    Founder Kilroy is on a distinguished road Kilroy's Avatar
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    Mismanagement and greed
    Really? People invest a ton of money to buy or build and maintain a course and to bring a quality golf experience and service to the golfers. It is now more competitive than ever and the boom that brought us all the new courses and busy tee sheets at every one is over. Investors want a reasonable return. Everyone who works deserves to make a living for their work. When a market is in decline, something has to give don't you think? How is that mismanagement or greed? If it were one course it could be mismanagement but they were not mismanaging the entire industry. Some of the things that they are trying now to attract new players may be misguided though. Time will tell.
    Life dinnae come wit gimmies so yuv got nae chance o' gitt'n any from me.

  10. #10
    Forum Jedi golfisforfun is on a distinguished road
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    Golf has become harder to play? Seriously??? Golf is easier to play, equipment makes it easier, accessibility to lessons makes it easier... Just PLAY easier/shorter tees and you will do fine!

    Does golf need a dress code? Let people play in what they want to wear!

    Does a course need a salaried Head Pro or do they need a business manager with experience handling the ups and downs of running a business? Too many head pros think they are some sort of special gift to the world and they should just sit around and teach lessons... Lessons is such a minor part of a course, why not just contract that out and get a real manager?

    Like I said above, let me write off my golf as a business expense. Instead of me meeting my clients at the office, let me play a round of golf with them, let me spend $400 on an afternoon instead of no money...

    Fact is, we need cheap courses (like the local courses offering $1 a hole) and we need private clubs and we need options in between.

    Cost of doing business in Canada (and especially in Ontario) continues to increase and businesses can't simply increase their prices by the same amount every year.

    Retail prices (golf equipment and clothing) have nothing to do with decline in golf because you can easily do like me and order 10 Adidas shirts every winter from a US site for $25 US each and save hundreds and hundreds of dollars compared to Golftown prices. You can buy last years model clubs and save tons of money, so the cost of the equipment is not the issue.

    If you want to talk about green fees, look at it this way... An average course here is $60 on the weekend to walk. (I ignore cart prices because that is a luxury option for most) At an average of 4.5 hours per round, that is just over $13 per round. How much do you guys pay for ice hockey? Bet it is more than that. How much for soccer? Bet it is more than that. It is very difficult to find any activity for less than $13 an hour, so I think the price excuse is a weak one.

    Do people have less time? That is very possible. I don't have the time, I have 2 young boys, they keep me busy. Would I like to golf more, yes, but I don't, because I want to do things with my family. So my 40 rounds a year is now down to a dozen or so...






    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    We already have cheap prices for beginners, just go at Twilight times. Sure it cost to keep courses in good condition but they are making money. Yes it's expensive at prime time, for a family of four one is looking at $180 for green fees add another $70 in a meal so it's an expensive day out!

    The economist sums it up nicely.

    "Why are fewer Americans playing golf? There are three main reasons.

    First, golf’s calm pace may no longer fit in with modern lifestyles. It can take more than four hours to play a full round of 18 holes. And disappearing to the golf course for half the weekend is not compatible with modern attitudes to child-rearing.

    Second, while golf may have managed to shake off some of its elitist image, America’s troubled economy is once more making it a pursuit of the wealthy. Middle and lower-income golfers have seen their pay packets shrink, hurting membership numbers at mid-range golf courses. Some public courses have been closed by local governments making spending cuts.

    Third, golf has become harder to play. Since the 1990s golf-course designers have taken to building longer, tougher courses in order to put golfers and their equipment to the test. The sport’s growing difficulty and its 200-page rulebook make it a tough sell to new players.

    In the past stars have had the power to reignite interest in the game. Tiger Woods drew an unprecedented number of newcomers to the sport. But he fell from grace and no new star has emerged to take his place.

    Instead, in a bid to renew golf’s appeal, faster, easier versions of the sport are being invented. Foot golf, a hybrid of football and golf and top golf, which involves hitting gold balls onto huge, coloured targets in outdoor sports bars, are two experiments.

    Will they succeed in reviving the sports popularity? That, as a golfer would say, is a long shot.

  11. #11
    Forum Jedi golfisforfun is on a distinguished road
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    Better planning would yield better results...
    We need the total package, a course, a gym, a daycare, a pool, tennis, restaurants etc...
    If I could put the family in the car, drive 30 minutes or so to the "club" and spend 5 hours knowing everyone is entertained and having fun, that would be ideal!

  12. #12
    Pitching Wedge tortoise is on a distinguished road
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    golfisforfun makes a valid point in his first point.

    I wonder how the changes in corporate and government spending have impacted the revenue of courses.

    My dad has been the sale field for his entire career and I remember a time in the late 90's to mid 2000's where it seemed he was always bringing his clubs wherever he went.

    In talking with other friends that spending practice has dwindled considerably.

  13. #13
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    I believe you can still write off individual rounds of golf as a business entertainment expense.

    What you cannot do is write off a membership.
    Not fat anymore. Need to get better at golf now!

  14. #14
    Hall of Fame jeffc is on a distinguished road jeffc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jvincent View Post
    I believe you can still write off individual rounds of golf as a business entertainment expense.

    What you cannot do is write off a membership.
    nope. https://www.wilkinson.net/resources/...he-golf-course
    I got a fever. And the only prescription is more golf equipment.

  15. #15
    Hall of Fame jvincent is on a distinguished road jvincent's Avatar
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    Damn you CRA!
    Not fat anymore. Need to get better at golf now!

  16. #16
    Forum Jedi golfisforfun is on a distinguished road
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    Yep... thanks CRA... haha... Courses just need to get creative... Don't charge me $75 for Golf, charge me $75 for Advertising and then put my company name on a Corkboard for 4 hours...!

  17. #17
    Ace KOKO72 is on a distinguished road KOKO72's Avatar
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    Would you agree that $75.00 is a small price to pay to have a client's undivided attention for 4 hours or so to conduct business and hopefully close a big sale? doing that a few times a season is worth a lot more that the measly write off CRA would allow.

  18. #18
    Posting Sensei justsomeguy is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOKO72 View Post
    Would you agree that $75.00 is a small price to pay to have a client's undivided attention for 4 hours or so to conduct business and hopefully close a big sale? doing that a few times a season is worth a lot more that the measly write off CRA would allow.
    Nobody really conducts business and/or closes a sale on a golf course. The fact is that most "business" golf involves suppliers and clients that are already doing business with each other. But what you can do on a golf course is build a personal relationship with your supplier/client, which can help smooth out some of the issues that will inevitably crop up in the future. Which is certainly worth something.

  19. #19
    Hall of Fame jeffc is on a distinguished road jeffc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
    Nobody really conducts business and/or closes a sale on a golf course. The fact is that most "business" golf involves suppliers and clients that are already doing business with each other. But what you can do on a golf course is build a personal relationship with your supplier/client, which can help smooth out some of the issues that will inevitably crop up in the future. Which is certainly worth something.
    Tons of people entertain clients on the course. My dad did for 30+ years. Part of conducting business is taking clients golfing.

  20. #20
    Forum Jedi golfisforfun is on a distinguished road
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    Here is another issue that bothers me... So many courses offer junior memberships, student memberships, intermediate and senior memberships, but god forbid you are a guy in his 40s who wants a deal!
    It makes no sense. Guys in their 40s might be the ones with the most expenses in all these groups, and yet they get no deals.
    Why do so many course make the cut off 39 years of age for specials?
    I had more money and more time when I was in my late 20s and early 30s.

  21. #21
    Posting Sensei justsomeguy is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffc View Post
    Tons of people entertain clients on the course. My dad did for 30+ years. Part of conducting business is taking clients golfing.
    You've missed the point. I have been a client that's been taken golfing many times, and it would be a stretch to say that we "conducted business" and we certainly didn't "close a sale". Its just relationship-building. And there are some organizations that do not allow their employees to accept these rounds.

  22. #22
    Hall of Fame jeffc is on a distinguished road jeffc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justsomeguy View Post
    You've missed the point. I have been a client that's been taken golfing many times, and it would be a stretch to say that we "conducted business" and we certainly didn't "close a sale". Its just relationship-building. And there are some organizations that do not allow their employees to accept these rounds.
    I didn't miss the point. Entertaining clients is doing business.
    I got a fever. And the only prescription is more golf equipment.

  23. #23
    9 Iron rajah is on a distinguished road
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    Guess business is like Jean Cretien at the ad scam with his golf ball analogy!

  24. #24
    Wannamaker stevek is on a distinguished road stevek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rajah View Post
    Guess business is like Jean Cretien at the ad scam with his golf ball analogy!
    I bought golf balls from the Taxpayer Association that had Cretien's and Martin's image and a funny caption that I can't recall but will try to find tonight.
    Last edited by stevek; 12-01-2016 at 06:41 AM.
    "Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men...
    the other 999 follow women." - Groucho Marx

  25. #25
    Must be Single Sakuraba is on a distinguished road Sakuraba's Avatar
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