is "right" frequency obvious with swingsync?

[Colin]

I'm hoping that people who have tried the frequency matching process, and perhaps new clubs, with swingsync can relate their experiences. I'm particularly interested in how obvious it was to them that one of the test clubs was the right one for them. I had a session with Eric yesterday, and found it very difficult to tell the difference from one club to the next. Eric said that one should feel more solid than the rest. I tried 5 or 6, and sort of felt I could eliminate 1 or 2 of them, but had a hard time choosing between the other 3. So I definitely didn't have 1 that stood out.

The monitor Eric used showed all my shots, for all clubs, going right (mostly slices, rather than fades). What's interesting is that this is not a problem I have with my irons, although I do with woods, esp. driver.

I was concerned that I'm not far enough along in grooving my swing to benefit from club fitting, but Eric said it shouldn't matter - there should be a frequency that works for me no matter how good my swing is, so it should never change for me. My concern is that if my swing is inconsistent, it will affect how well I contact the ball, from one swing to another, and therefore affect how each shot feels. Can I really choose a single shaft frequency if this is the case? (Eric uses 5-irons. I'd say I hit the a 5-iron the way I'd like to only 60-70% of the time normally).

Anyhow, looking forward to hearing other people's experiences and/or insights into the swingsync frequency selection process, esp. whether there was a single obvious frequency that worked (felt right) for them. If the whole premise of swingsync is that each individual has a single frequency that works best for them, and that this should be obvious, by feel, from trying different test clubs, this may not be the right thing for me to continue with given my results so far.

[Chieflongtee]

Can anybody tell the difference between a 290 cpm club and a 294 cpm club? How many balls per club did you hit? How far do you hit your 7 iron? Were all balls hit on the sweetspot?

[BC MIST]

Anyhow, looking forward to hearing other people's experiences and/or insights into the swingsync frequency selection process, esp. whether there was a single obvious frequency that worked (felt right) for them. If the whole premise of swingsync is that each individual has a single frequency that works best for them, and that this should be obvious, by feel, from trying different test clubs, this may not be the right thing for me to continue with given my results so far.

While many years ago, I went through the Eric’s testing process and had similar results to yours. A couple of clubs were obviously unsuitable and the others felt very much the same. However, we narrowed down the selection and came up with a frequency that he felt was best for me. The clubs he made, I used for a few years until I got into club making myself. Perhaps the ideal frequency is more a function of the force with which you swing the club, which is unlikely to change much as your swing improves, and is not based on the actual results of the shot. While the positioning of the club will improve in time, the effort you put into the swing will change very little.

In 2004 I assembled a set of SF (single frequency), total weight and MOI matched clubs and really enjoyed them, although they felt too flexible. The frequency was based on what Eric established for me years ago. Over the winter I realized that Eric uses a shorter clamp length than my 5” clamp length on the frequency analyzer and my clubs were indeed, too soft, so I built another set using the equivalent frequency, again MOI matched, but not matched by total weight this time, and the swing feel of all the clubs is identical and the performance is quite satisfactory.

I gather that there is some sort of “harmonic” I believe it is called, where shafts with a frequency 15 cpm’s or so, higher or lower, will feel similar, so this may explain why different frequencied clubs may feel alike. I stand to be corrected on this. As I got more involved in club making, I have often questioned why traditional clubs are soft in the long irons and much stiffer in the short irons. Why play a ladies flex in the 3, a senior flex in the 5, a regular flex in the 7 and a stiff in the wedges, when we supposedly swing the club with the same force each time? I guess tradition is hard to break, but I would love to hear a more scientific explanation as to why clubs getting stiffer as the length becomes shorter, play better, if in fact they do.

The process of making clubs single frequency and MOI matched is quite involved and this explains the much higher price, however, I still believe that it is a better way to go. It is also easier to complete this matching if the head weights of the clubs do NOT differ by the traditional 7 grams. My guess is that Eric’s heads are lighter than traditional in the long irons and heavier in the short irons. This partially explains why the swingweights are not the same, NOR SHOULD THEY BE, in a MOI, SF matched sets. Swingweight is relatively unimportant anyway as it just indicates the heft of the club when you pick it up, but makes the swing feel, different. What is neat about the SF, MOI clubs is that all clubs are swung with the same force and that swing consistency is something that most of us strive for.

[broken27]

I find the subject matter of this thread possibly fascinating, as I'm at the stage where I'm considering such a process (club fitting etc). Only problem is: I have no idea what you guys mean by "frequency".

Could someone please explain what that term means (is it the vibration of the club resulting from contact?) and how it relates / applies to club "selection"?

Thanks in adv.

Dan

[jvincent]

Broken, frequency is the frequency of oscillation of the shaft when clamped. It is a more precise indication of the stiffness of the shaft. Higher frequency = more stiff. To measure it the shaft is clamped with a weight on the end and then it is "twanged".

It's important to note that how the shaft is clamped and the amount of weight attached to the tip of the shaft will have an effect on the the frequency reading.

[Kilroy]

Here are 2 articles by Eric Cook of Swing-Sync

The first is an overview of the principals of single frequency matching, the second goes into pretty good detail.

http://www.golfresource.net/articles...singlefreq.htm

http://www.golfresource.net/articles.../frequency.htm

[broken27]

Wow, thanks for the quick replies guys!

Dan

[Colin]

Can anybody tell the difference between a 290 cpm club and a 294 cpm club? How many balls per club did you hit? How far do you hit your 7 iron? Were all balls hit on the sweetspot?

My guess is no, probably can't feel 3cpm difference. But I thought I'd be able to tell differences between 4 different frequencies. By the way, I wasn't told the frequency of any of the clubs and didn't ask. I thought I'd wait until we narrowed it down more - I'm going back to go through the same process with woods. This should be interesting because the theory is that the "right" frequency for woods should be 30cpm different (less I assume) from that of irons. It will be interesting to see if the wood frequency I tend towards really is 30cpm less than the iron frequency I tend towards.

I started off hitting about 5 balls per club. If it was obvious that I didn't contact the ball well (eg fat), then I'd hit another - so we were trying to concentrate on swings with reasonable contact. Once I eliminated a couple of clubs, I hit 2 or 3 more with the likely candidates.
I felt that many balls were hit on the sweetspot, but the monior didn't agree with this. Usually when I slice, it feels terrible.

I hit my 7 iron about 145. My club head speed is probably quite low, but I think a bit faster than last year. I took a few lessons at the end of winter with Warren Grant, which totally changed my swing. This in general has improved my length (last year, my 7 iron length was prob 130), although I'm figting with contact and accuracy consistency at the moment. I put this down to being too eager to play rather than practice what I've learned. So I'll be at the range more than on the course for the next while.

[Colin]

BC,

glad to hear that it wasn't obvious for you initially either, but still found a frequency that worked for you. Eric did mention a harmonic range, and I think it was 15cpm. It will be interesting to hear what the frequency range of the candidate clubs for me actually were - hopefully within the same harmonic. I wish I'd taken note of the numbers on the club shafts (not cpm values, just club identifiers). I only remember one of the clubs I thought felt good was numbered "12".
I like the concept of a set of clubs that feel the same. I'm thinking of following through with this process and perhaps buy 3 clubs initially to test that they really do feel the same, as well as right for me, before committing to a full set.

[Chieflongtee]

BC. I found 2 steel shafts out there that will build to a single frequency without any sort of tip trimming. Providing the heads are within tolerances +- 7 grams per head all you have to do is butt trim to length. And no the shorter irons do not go any higher than before. The last set I built for myself is built this way. Single frequency makes a whole lot of sense. The only problem is to find the right frequency. I sort of disagree with Eric when he says that once you found one frequency you are set for life. I don't think a 75 year old should play the same frequency as when he was 25.

[Chieflongtee]

Colin. You would be fine with a set of low R or High A.

[jvincent]

BC. I found 2 steel shafts out there that will build to a single frequency without any sort of tip trimming. Providing the heads are within tolerances +- 7 grams per head all you have to do is butt trim to length.

Andre, and those shafts were...........?

[Chieflongtee]

Broken. Here is a link that will shed a little light. Keep in mind that the baseline frequency is measured with 205 gram tip weigth and a 1.25 hosel depth insertion. A heavier weight weill bring it down and a deeper insertion will make it go up.

http://www.konagolfsales.com/specsan...m#steel%20iron

[Chieflongtee]

Andre, and those shafts were...........?

PM sent.

[Colin]

Colin. You would be fine with a set of low R or High A.

What's the A in "High A" Andre? I assume R is Regular? What can I do with this info - take it to a builder who can't/won't determine this himself? Thanks ...

[Big Johnny69]

Low R means soft regular flex whereas a high A would mean a firmer A flex. If I am wrong I'm sure Andre will correct me.

[Chieflongtee]

What's the A in "High A" Andre? I assume R is Regular? What can I do with this info - take it to a builder who can't/won't determine this himself? Thanks ...

I can only speak for Mercury shafts. One manufacturer's Regular could be another one's stiff. Take True Temper TX 90 for example. Their A flex(amateur) plays more like a firm R.

[Big Johnny69]

Andre was I correct in my answer or did I get it backwards?

[Chieflongtee]

You were right. See this and scroll down.
http://www.konagolfsales.com/specsan...m#steel%20iron

[Chieflongtee]

Broken, frequency is the frequency of oscillation of the shaft when clamped. It is a more precise indication of the stiffness of the shaft. Higher frequency = more stiff. To measure it the shaft is clamped with a weight on the end and then it is "twanged".

It's important to note that how the shaft is clamped and the amount of weight attached to the tip of the shaft will have an effect on the the frequency reading.

I only use the tip weight for comparing shafts. Other than that I measure all shafts with their actual heads. I dryfit the head by using plastic wrap. Others use fishing line etc..

[BC MIST]

Low R means soft regular flex whereas a high A would mean a firmer A flex. If I am wrong I'm sure Andre will correct me.

As there are no industry standards, reading what is on the label of the shaft will not tell you what frequency or what stiffness the shaft really is. The use of a frequency meter and a set of generally accepted standard frequencies that club makers use will get you what you want.

Andre and I use the Club Scout FM and at 38",for example, the club will have a frequency of 304 cpm's for a high senior flex (A+) and 308 for a low regular (R). Couldn't be much more specific than that.

[Chieflongtee]

BC. I once put up a set with the following frequency:
3iron 297 cpms 39 inches long
4iron 301 cpms 38.5 inches long
5iron 305 cpms 38 inches long
6iron 309 cpms 37.5 inches long
7iron 313 cpms 37 inches long
8iron 317 cpms 36.5 inches long
9iron 321 cpms 36 inches long
Wedges 325 36 inches long

Then I used a stiff shaft frequency matched and butt trimmed to length. The whole set came out at 288. They play like stiff and do not feel like noodles at all. I can usually tell a noodle club just by waggling the club.

[BC MIST]

BC. I once put up a set with the following frequency:
3iron 297 cpms 39 inches long
4iron 301 cpms 38.5 inches long
5iron 305 cpms 38 inches long
6iron 309 cpms 37.5 inches long
7iron 313 cpms 37 inches long
8iron 317 cpms 36.5 inches long
9iron 321 cpms 36 inches long
Wedges 325 36 inches long

Then I used a stiff shaft frequency matched and butt trimmed to length. The whole set came out at 288. They play like stiff and do not feel like noodles at all. I can usually tell a noodle club just by waggling the club.

The shafts must have been Mercury Savages.

Interestingly, Eric's frequency for me was 287 which would translate into about 301 on our frequency analyzers, and that is exactly what the clubs I am now using are. They certainly do not feel too flexible, nor are they boardy. Perhaps the most important part of the assembly is that they re MOI matched as well.

Maybe it's the clubs or maybe I am just going through a good patch, but I am striking the ball as well right now as I ever have in my life. The problem is that my "million" dollar swing has a 25 cent putting stroke.