Men's Intersectionals 2016

[Sakuraba]

Anyone have a link to the results?

[Shortswing]

Division D

Tecumseh 38
Royal Ottawa 38
Outaouais 32
Renfrew 12

Tecumseh declare winner by 2nd tie breaker

[jvincent]

Division A:

RideauView: 36
Rivermead: 32
Hunt Club: 27
Greyhawk: 25

[marcf]

Results will be posted when all divisions report them to the office. Some are taking longer than others.

[putterface]

Division I:

Glen Mar: 48
Upper Canada: 29
Metcalfe: 24
Cedar Glen: 23

[regplast]

Anyone have a link to the results?

Div C Kanata 34: Pembroke 32: Mississippi 32: Smiths Falls 22.

[Cartwright]

Not surprising, from what I heard, the last group in P Division took 6 hours 40 minutes to play.

Results will be posted when all divisions report them to the office. Some are taking longer than others.

[Big Johnny69]

Not surprising, from what I heard, the last group in P Division took 6 hours 40 minutes to play.

Ouch! I've played in scrambles tourneys that didn't take that long!!!

[big easy]

Not surprising, from what I heard, the last group in P Division took 6 hours 40 minutes to play.

I was in that group and we followed the pace of the groups ahead of us...it was brutal as I normally get done in 3:30...

[Grabster]

I was in that group and we followed the pace of the groups ahead of us...it was brutal as I normally get done in 3:30...

I can relate. I was in group that followed as well. 45 minutes to do 2 holes. I left.
That reminds me to call the club now and tell the manager what I think of them booking time slots after events like this. They should know the 4h round will not be realistic. Unfair to people that booked a time slot and are showing up completely unaware of what will happen.
They wasted my Sunday afternoon.

[jvincent]

I can't imagine any circumstances, other than a weather delay, that would account for a 6:40 round.

IMHO the entire group should have been disqualified and given zero points. I know that the OVGA can't have staff at every location, but I would suggest that in a situation like this to team captains should have taken charge of the situation somehow.

[Sakuraba]

Not surprising, from what I heard, the last group in P Division took 6 hours 40 minutes to play.

While I feel sorry for Grabster, I had a chuckle reading that...

[mjf]

I was part of the (winning! ) RideauView team this year in Division A. To be honest, I had no idea what our pace of play was during the match. When we finished, I was told that it took us just under 6 hours. It really didn't feel like we were that slow.

Before we teed off, the OVGA official mentioned the pace of play policy... and then qualified it with something like "But this is intersectionals so...". It was clear that they knew we wouldn't be finishing in 4 hours.

[John]

Wow that is completely ridiculous on all fronts. I wouldn't last four holes.

[jvincent]

To be honest, I had no idea what our pace of play was during the match. When we finished, I was told that it took us just under 6 hours. It really didn't feel like we were that slow.

You know I'm going to bug you about this anyway, but were there holes open in front of you or were groups ahead of yours also slow?

[mjf]

You know I'm going to bug you about this anyway, but were there holes open in front of you or were groups ahead of yours also slow?

Aside from teeing off a little late, my group (I was in the #7 spot) wasn't held up at any point... not that I recall at least. We probably were out of position some points? However, I remember a group being on the green on #13 (par 3) when we got to the tee so we weren't that bad. To be honest, I was so focused on the task at hand, I wasn't thinking much about the pace of play.

One suggestion I would make to improve pace of play is that if somebody has completed all of their matches before the end of the 18 holes they should not be allowed to keep playing.

[marcf]

Aside from teeing off a little late, my group (I was in the #7 spot) wasn't held up at any point... not that I recall at least. We probably were out of position some points? However, I remember a group being on the green on #13 (par 3) when we got to the tee so we weren't that bad. To be honest, I was so focused on the task at hand, I wasn't thinking much about the pace of play.

One suggestion I would make to improve pace of play is that if somebody has completed all of their matches before the end of the 18 holes they should not be allowed to keep playing.

This is the rule, and is supposed to be applied by the host club. Once your matches end, you are supposed to vacate, and go cheer your team on. If this was not instructed, then it was the host clubs fault, as it is in the instruction package the captain receives.

[marcf]

Aside from teeing off a little late, my group (I was in the #7 spot) wasn't held up at any point... not that I recall at least. We probably were out of position some points? However, I remember a group being on the green on #13 (par 3) when we got to the tee so we weren't that bad. To be honest, I was so focused on the task at hand, I wasn't thinking much about the pace of play.

One suggestion I would make to improve pace of play is that if somebody has completed all of their matches before the end of the 18 holes they should not be allowed to keep playing.

What the official meant, is that there is no way to enforce pace of play in Match Play under the USGA / R&A Rules of Golf as used by Golf Canada. We did receive a couple of notes from clubs about slow play, and I openly asked them if they had a player in the group as well, thus they had 25% responsibility as well. I still haven't received an answer from one club to that question...

This is the great issue with Intersectionals, with solutions that would be rife with "that's not fair! It wasn't my fault! etc..." and spread across 16 Mens divisions, plus need to be applied to Women's, Seniors and Juniors.

I don't know why or how, everyone starts thinking it is Sunday at the US Open, but yet, after a lot of the people who are at fault, are the first ones to complain...not you MJF, just in general.

[justsomeguy]

Results for most divisions are now posted on that other local golf website whose name shall not be spoken here.

[mjf]

I don't know why or how, everyone starts thinking it is Sunday at the US Open, but yet, after a lot of the people who are at fault, are the first ones to complain...not you MJF, just in general.

I wasn't complaining.

I'm no fan of slow play but, like I said earlier, I really had no idea how fast (slow) we were playing until it was all over. To me, it felt like it was a normal round... even though I normally get antsy if the round goes over 4.5 hours.

[jvincent]

What the official meant, is that there is no way to enforce pace of play in Match Play under the USGA / R&A Rules of Golf as used by Golf Canada.

Couldn't a time par concept be applied? I'll give an example.

- Set time pars for holes 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15.
- If a group that is not out of position (definition to follow) when the play of the time par hole is completed then the next hole is halved in all matches and the group must proceed immediately to the tee of the following hole. The concept of halving a hole as a penalty doesn't exist in the rules, but you can give a loss of hole penalty. Since all players lose the hole, it's the equivalent of a half.
- A group that is not out of position, but is following a group which has been assessed a time par penalty has their time par reset when they complete the hole which the penalty was assessed.
- Out of position is defined as the group ahead has completed play on the next hole before your group completes play on the current hole, i.e. a full hole is open.

Certainly this isn't perfect, and could be abused, but it's a start. Either the teams/captains/governing bodies care about pace of play, or they don't.

[big easy]

I can't imagine any circumstances, other than a weather delay, that would account for a 6:40 round.

IMHO the entire group should have been disqualified and given zero points. I know that the OVGA can't have staff at every location, but I would suggest that in a situation like this to team captains should have taken charge of the situation somehow.

Should you have read my post you would have noted that we followed the pace of the group ahead. Please find me one good reason to put us on the clock when we aren't out of position. I believe the only person that deserves a zero is the writer of the comment I'm quoting.

Yes it took an awful lot of time, which isn't acceptable under any circumstances, but some guys believe that looking at putts from every angles, taking 5 practice swings and walking like zombies will make them score better.

[hoolio]

I wasn't complaining.

I'm no fan of slow play but, like I said earlier, I really had no idea how fast (slow) we were playing until it was all over. To me, it felt like it was a normal round... even though I normally get antsy if the round goes over 4.5 hours.

I'm with you, I thought we were tournament slow, but not 6 hours slow. From tee to 20 yards out, I think the group had a very good pace with everyone ready to play when their turn came, but things seem to slow down considerably around the greens in 4 person match play. I noted several times where you guys were all ready to go but there was some indecision on who was technically away. Once that was figured out, everyone had to reset and go through their routine again. Same thing on the green - it seemed that abiding by the rules slowed things down more than reading putts.

There may have been a handful of times where I looked back and saw the group behind us waiting, but that was early in the round. I think that was just the pace for the day.

[marcf]

Couldn't a time par concept be applied? I'll give an example.

- Set time pars for holes 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15.
- If a group that is not out of position (definition to follow) when the play of the time par hole is completed then the next hole is halved in all matches and the group must proceed immediately to the tee of the following hole. The concept of halving a hole as a penalty doesn't exist in the rules, but you can give a loss of hole penalty. Since all players lose the hole, it's the equivalent of a half.
- A group that is not out of position, but is following a group which has been assessed a time par penalty has their time par reset when they complete the hole which the penalty was assessed.
- Out of position is defined as the group ahead has completed play on the next hole before your group completes play on the current hole, i.e. a full hole is open.

Certainly this isn't perfect, and could be abused, but it's a start. Either the teams/captains/governing bodies care about pace of play, or they don't.

Ok, interesting theory, a couple of questions.

1.) Who monitors the 10 groups all passing through the checkpoints at different times? How do you staff this over 16 Divisions, located from Deep River to Cassleman, to Alexandria and points in between? You would need a minimum of 4 staff per location. The OVGA has enough issues trying to get volunteers to give of their time to help run our events.

2.) Who and How do you handle the appeals process? I can guarantee you that every site will have at least one appeal on a group being penalized, especially if a group loses by 2 or less points.

Good theory, lots to think about, as apparently self policing doesn't work.

[jvincent]

Should you have read my post you would have noted that we followed the pace of the group ahead. Please find me one good reason to put us on the clock when we aren't out of position. I believe the only person that deserves a zero is the writer of the comment I'm quoting.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I understood that you were waiting on the group ahead of you. They were the one's that needed to be addressed.

[jvincent]

Ok, interesting theory, a couple of questions.

1.) Who monitors the 10 groups all passing through the checkpoints at different times? How do you staff this over 16 Divisions, located from Deep River to Cassleman, to Alexandria and points in between? You would need a minimum of 4 staff per location. The OVGA has enough issues trying to get volunteers to give of their time to help run our events.

2.) Who and How do you handle the appeals process? I can guarantee you that every site will have at least one appeal on a group being penalized, especially if a group loses by 2 or less points.

Good theory, lots to think about, as apparently self policing doesn't work.

Enforcement would definitely be an issue given the numbers. I'd suggest that the team captains would be responsible for policing their matches.

No appeals process. If you miss your time, you miss your time. A clear hole is a clear hole so there's no debate on that.

[BC MIST]

No appeals process. If you miss your time, you miss your time. A clear hole is a clear hole so there's no debate on that.

There has to be an appeals process. If, for example, two of the four players are brutally slow, why should the other two be penalized? Why should the other two have to make up for the lost time by rushing their play?

As part of the Pace of Play policy, Golf Ontario/Golf Quebec/OVGA instruct participants that if one or more players in a group are very slow that they are to inform an official who will then observe and time ALL players. If an appeal is launched then there may be evidence that will permit a slow play penalty to be rescinded for one or more of the players. However, to do this, as Marc indicated, scores of volunteers are needed, as are qualified and experienced rules officials, and sufficient numbers of each group do not exist.

Plus, what is to prevent a player who is "UP" in all of his matches, from slowing the pace down knowing that if his group is "out of position," one or more of the next holes are going to be halved because of slow play?

[jvincent]

BC, as you point out, the only way to be "fair" would be to have an official with each group and we know that isn't practical because of the number of volunteers required. In the absence of an observer for each group then you have to apply a black and white solution such as what I proposed or just accept that rounds will take 6 hours.

Yes, there will be players who are penalized because of the action of others. I recognize this isn't fair, but if you want to address pace of play you need to do something.

The scenario you describe is the abuse I mentioned. Golf is supposed to be an honourable game, so I would hope that it wouldn't happen but I expect that it would.

I just thought of a technology solution that could help. The idea would be a shot clock kind of like in a timed chess match.

On the first tee once the honour is set, the shot clock is started. After the first player plays his stroke his clock is stopped and the next person's is started. Continue the process until the end of the round with each player's clock started once it is determined who is away and is next to play. At the end of the round assess penalties based on the amount of time each golfer took based on their shot clock.

Again, not a perfect solution since somebody needs to be in charge of the clock(s).

[GarthM]

I played in 7th spot in "F" division @ Cedarhill and our round was roughly 5:30. The first group of alternates (granted they were only 3) were hitting their second shots on 18 when we were walking up 10 fairway -- and the only time we lost the group ahead of us was after they finished all their matches after the 15th hole.

I am going to blame the excessive time on "lift-clean-place through the green" that was the rule of the day, when there was absolutely no reason for it. I did not have a mud-ball all day and did not see any reason for lift-clean-place anywhere - casual water relief would have been sufficient all around. This definitely added to the length of the round.

Quite the contrast to a number of years ago when we played Nationview and every fairway was a lake but the OVGA rep said "Play it down boys!". Needless to say we had no OVGA rep this year.... :-(

[DanCan59]

5.5 to 6 hour rounds no wonder I gave up competitive golf ....