Ball in a ditch

[Kilroy]

Garry, in the past you have mentioned that if a drainage ditch, with or without water in it is too deep for a mower to pass through, then staked or not, it's a hazzard.

At Le Sorcier on the first hole there is a large ditch running on the outside of the cartpath, 3+ feet deep and nothing but mud and runnoff water in it. It runs the entire length of the hole. It is clearly a drainage ditch dug by a dozer.It is unstaked.

• By your definition, the ditch is a hazzard.
• A ball on the other side of such a ditch is not in a hazzard.

Correct?

Yesterday my FC was in a much smaller natural ditch 2 feet deep. This ditch broke away at the edge of the rough, and went into the brush. It was dry, but you could tell that it's a drainage ditch. Again, no stakes. Would that be a hazzard to?

It matters because if it were deemed a hazzard he could drop 2 clubs from where the ground broke away into the ditch. If he was forced to declare it unplayble, he had no reasonable drop within 2 clublengths, and only forrest behind him on a line through the ball to the hole. Leaving his only option being to go back to the tee. BIG difference in this case.

What about a "ditch" that looks like it has never seen any water?

[EDSGOLF]

I don't know what the ruling is Dan, but you should look at your scorecard because at Emerald Links, I forget the hole, there is a "ditch" that runs through the fairway with no stakes and for the longest time we would drop and take a penalty stroke. Then one day I decided to read the scorecard and it mentioned that this ditch is a free drop, nice local rule.

[Gary Hill]

Garry, in the past you have mentioned that if a drainage ditch, with or without water in it is too deep for a mower to pass through, then staked or not, it's a hazzard.

At Le Sorcier on the first hole there is a large ditch running on the outside of the cartpath, 3+ feet deep and nothing but mud and runnoff water in it. It runs the entire length of the hole. It is clearly a drainage ditch dug by a dozer.It is unstaked.

• By your definition, the ditch is a hazzard.
• A ball on the other side of such a ditch is not in a hazzard.

Correct?

Yesterday my FC was in a much smaller natural ditch 2 feet deep. This ditch broke away at the edge of the rough, and went into the brush. It was dry, but you could tell that it's a drainage ditch. Again, no stakes. Would that be a hazzard to?

It matters because if it were deemed a hazzard he could drop 2 clubs from where the ground broke away into the ditch. If he was forced to declare it unplayble, he had no reasonable drop within 2 clublengths, and only forrest behind him on a line through the ball to the hole. Leaving his only option being to go back to the tee. BIG difference in this case.

What about a "ditch" that looks like it has never seen any water?

You are correct on all counts.

Water Hazard
A “water hazard’’ is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course.


You will notice that the definition of a water hazard does NOT mention stakes or lines.
You will notice that the definition does not mention when water was last in the ditch or was ever in the ditch.

The definitions are there to define EXACTLY what the "golf definition" is when it differs from the "dictionary definition" or "common use" definition.

[Gary Hill]

I don't know what the ruling is Dan, but you should look at your scorecard because at Emerald Links, I forget the hole, there is a "ditch" that runs through the fairway with no stakes and for the longest time we would drop and take a penalty stroke. Then one day I decided to read the scorecard and it mentioned that this ditch is a free drop, nice local rule.

There is no such thing as a Local Rule that allows for a free lift out of a ditch.
The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.
If you send me the exact wording of the Local Rule, I will contact the R.C.G.A. so they may take appropriate action against the course.

[EDSGOLF]

There is no such thing as a Local Rule that allows for a free lift out of a ditch.
The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.
If you send me the exact wording of the Local Rule, I will contact the R.C.G.A. so they may take appropriate action against the course.

I found a scorecard Gary but my intention here is to not get anybody in trouble. Here is the exact wording, there are actually 4 holes:

"Unmarked ditches that run perpendicular to the fairway on East #2, #4, #5 and West #2 - FREE DROP at closest point of relief not nearer the hole."

If you do do something Gary, please get back to us with RCGA's response.

[Gary Hill]

I found a scorecard Gary but my intention here is to not get anybody in trouble. Here is the exact wording, there are actually 4 holes:

"Unmarked ditches that run perpendicular to the fairway on East #2, #4, #5 and West #2 - FREE DROP at closest point of relief not nearer the hole."

If you do do something Gary, please get back to us with RCGA's response.

I personally could not care less and it is not my intention to get anyone into trouble.

My intention was to make you aware that the Rules are the Rules.
A player cannot change the Rules to suit his needs.
Likewise, a golf course cannot change the Rules to speed up play.

FYI - The R.C.G.A. will not reply to me on matters I bring to their attention. Any action they may take is a private matter between themselves and the golf course.
(It is usually a polite phone call asking the course to print future scorecards without the offending Local Rule. Nobody is in danger of going to jail.)

[el tigre]

There is no such thing as a Local Rule that allows for a free lift out of a ditch.
The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.
If you send me the exact wording of the Local Rule, I will contact the R.C.G.A. so they may take appropriate action against the course.

If the course wanted to grant free relief from a ditch, could they simply mark the area as GUR?

[Gary Hill]

If the course wanted to grant free relief from a ditch, could they simply mark the area as GUR?

No. GUR is "ground under repair" which, by definition, can only be used for a temporary condition.

[EDSGOLF]

No. GUR is "ground under repair" which, by definition, can only be used for a temporary condition.

Kind of like Income Taxes, they're supposed to be temporary