Bridge over hazard

[spart]

In the event that a ball comes to rest on a bridge which goes over a marked hazard,(in the case of our discussion, a creek) is the ball considered to be in the hazard or does one get relief from this man made object?

[NoBack]

No relief. Play it from the bridge as your ball is inside the hazard line.
Dont know which rule # it is but Gary does.

[Gary Hill]

In the event that a ball comes to rest on a bridge which goes over a marked hazard,(in the case of our discussion, a creek) is the ball considered to be in the hazard or does one get relief from this man made object?

No, you do not get free relief.

The margins of a water hazard extent vertically upward and downward.

Therefore, the bridge (and the ball) is IN the water hazard. You may play the ball as it lies or proceed under Rule 26-1.

The good news is that the Note to Rule 13-4 specifically allows you to ground your club on the bridge.

[DCH]

One thing you didn't make clear. Does the hazard finish at each side of the bridge. Often on these circumstances, the bridge is not actually part of the hazard. Either a local rule will state the situation or the hazard marking will clearly delineate the real extent of the hazard. In my experience, if the bridge carries a cart path or is wide enough to, it will not be part of the hazard. Narrow foot bridges usually are. Unless embraced by the hazard, bridges are normally immovable obstructions where relief may be taken.

[Gary Hill]

One thing you didn't make clear. Does the hazard finish at each side of the bridge. Often on these circumstances, the bridge is not actually part of the hazard. Either a local rule will state the situation or the hazard marking will clearly delineate the real extent of the hazard. In my experience, if the bridge carries a cart path or is wide enough to, it will not be part of the hazard. Narrow foot bridges usually are. Unless embraced by the hazard, bridges are normally immovable obstructions where relief may be taken.

Absolutely false. A bridge by definition MUST be in the water hazard.
Water Hazard
A “water hazard’’ is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course.
All ground or water within the margin of a water hazard is part of the water hazard. The margin of a water hazard extends vertically upward and downward. Stakes and lines defining the margins of water hazards are in the hazards. Such stakes are obstructions. A ball is in a water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the water hazard.
The margins of a water hazard extend vertically upward and downward.

"Extends vertically upward and downward" means that the margin of the hazard is a vertical virtual wall that extends upwards to the moon and downwards to China.

A bridge is inside these virtual walls and therefore within the margins of the hazard.

You may have a foot or so on either end of the bridge that is outside the margin of the hazard. If the course is properly marked, there would be a yellow line on the bridge at this point.

The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf. If you would send me the names of any courses which have a Local Rule stating that the bridge is not part of the hazard, I will relay them to the R.C.G.A. so that appropriate action may be taken against the course.

[DCH]

It rather depends on the consrutuction of the 'bridge'. If a ditch passes under the ground through a concrete culvert, it is no longer an 'open water course'. The use of the word 'other' in the definition implies that all water hazards must be open. The area above the underground culvert may have an artificially surfaced path bounded by stone walls. This is an immovable obstruction not in the hazard. It may look like a bridge but is in fact the reverse, the water is actually running through a tunnel. Imagine a fairway 35 yards wide. A stream runs through the course and crosses that fairway at right angles. The open stream enters a culvert as it reaches one side of the fairway and resurfaces at the other side. Are you saying that the WH extends right across the fairway?

[Gary Hill]

It rather depends on the consrutuction of the 'bridge'. If a ditch passes under the ground through a concrete culvert, it is no longer an 'open water course'. The use of the word 'other' in the definition implies that all water hazards must be open. The area above the underground culvert may have an artificially surfaced path bounded by stone walls. This is an immovable obstruction not in the hazard. It may look like a bridge but is in fact the reverse, the water is actually running through a tunnel. Imagine a fairway 35 yards wide. A stream runs through the course and crosses that fairway at right angles. The open stream enters a culvert as it reaches one side of the fairway and resurfaces at the other side. Are you saying that the WH extends right across the fairway?

Yes.

[DCH]

Please explain how you justify your understanding of 'open watercourse' when it is completely covered by earth.
Can you quote a Decision which supports this? I have looked but can't see anything.

[Gary Hill]

Please explain how you justify your understanding of 'open watercourse' when it is completely covered by earth.
Can you quote a Decision which supports this? I have looked but can't see anything.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

An artificially surfaced area over a water hazard is a bridge.

It is irrelevant that the water in the water hazard flows thru some kind of a containment system.

[DCH]

Sorry, I diverted from the original point to ask a question in relation to your quote 'extends vertically upwards'
'Imagine a fairway 35 yards wide. A stream runs through the course and crosses that fairway at right angles. The open stream enters a culvert as it reaches one side of the fairway and resurfaces at the other side. Are you saying that the WH extends right across the fairway?'
and you answered 'yes'

[DCH]

An artificially surfaced area over a water hazard is a bridge.

But where did you get this definition?

[Gary Hill]

An artificially surfaced area over a water hazard is a bridge.

But where did you get this definition?

The dictionary.

bridge n. 1. A structure spanning and providing passage over a gap or barrier, such as a river or roadway.

A structure is man-made and artificially surfaced.
You can call it whatever you want to, but it is still within the margins of the water hazard.

ANYTHING that is within the margins of water hazard is IN the water hazard.
A ball on a structure within the margins of a water hazard is IN the water hazard and you don't get free relief.

[DCH]

'You can call it whatever you want to, but it is still within the margins of the water hazard.'

No. Yellow posts/ line define the margins. If you terminate the margin as the water disappears into and reappears from a culvert it is not in the hazard. The committee define the margins.

[Gary Hill]

'You can call it whatever you want to, but it is still within the margins of the water hazard.'

No. Yellow posts/ line define the margins. If you terminate the margin as the water disappears into and reappears from a culvert it is not in the hazard. The committee define the margins.

Absolutely not.
Rule 33-1. The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.

A water hazard that is not marked by stakes or lines DOES NOT cease to be a water hazard.

[DCH]

A water hazard is an open water course I believe.
1) An oblong ditch has a yellow stake at each corner with yellow lines marking the perimeter. 30ft away is a similar WH. An underground pipe allows water to pass between the two. Why is the ground above a WH?
2) If the pipe is known to bend along its length because of the relative positions of the ditches but the location of the exact line is not known, how do you mark the margins of this stretch of the WH? The margin extends vertically upward but from an unknown point.

[Gary Hill]

An underground pipe allows water to pass between the two.

If there is ground covered with grass above the pipe, then we have no water hazard, we have no bridge, and we have no problem.

Are you trying to say that every irrigation pipe below ground level is some secret, hidden water hazard covered by fairway and that we need a Local Rule to tell us that this fairway is not really a bridge?

[DCH]

If there is ground covered with grass above the pipe, then we have no water hazard, we have no bridge, and we have no problem.

Are you trying to say that every irrigation pipe below ground level is some secret, hidden water hazard covered by fairway and that we need a Local Rule to tell us that this fairway is not really a bridge?

I am trying to identify just when when anything above a culvert becomes part of a WH.
In the earlier example I gave where a 35 yard fairway was over the culvert, your 1st sentence above covers it and as you say, no problem .
However, let's posit that a cart path to one side of the fairway crosses to the other side diagonally and over the culvert at the same time. There is 15 yards or so of fairway each side of the path before either parts of the open ditch appear. Is part of the path now in the WH.
If not, how close does the path have to be before it is?

Further, does the 'open' (I use the word descriptively) part of the WH have to be on both sides of the 'bridge'.

[Gary Hill]

Sorry. I cannot help you further.

Have someone point out to you what a bridge is.

[davemiddle]

I am not an expert on the rules of golf and although what some of you have said makes some sense still I if the bridge is covered with an unnatural surface then you get relief

Q. An artificially-surfaced road or path is an obstruction. What constitutes artificial surfacing?
A. A road or path to which any foreign material, e.g., concrete, tar, gravel, wood chips, etc., has been applied is artificially-surfaced and thus an obstruction.
Gravel Used to Surface Road — See 23/14.

unless the bridge is made of dirt/grass you get relief
maybe someone can make this more clear in regards to how a hazard entend upwards

still in the dark but I would tell my playing partner he would get relief unless someone can give me a better answer

thanks

[el tigre]

I am not an expert on the rules of golf...

Gary Hill is a rules official and an expert on the rule of golf. He really, really knows this stuff.

...and although what some of you have said makes some sense still I if the bridge is covered with an unnatural surface then you get relief

You do not need to look at the Decisions book. The answer is found in Rule 24-2b) - specifically Note 1:

If a ball is in a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard), the player is not entitled to relief without penalty from interferance by an immovable obstruction. The player shall play the ball as it lies or proceed under Rule 26-1.

Since the margin of the hazard extends up as well as down, if your ball on the bridge is inside that hazard line then it is in the hazard. No free relief.

[DCH]

Gary Hill is a rules official and an expert on the rule of golf. He really, really knows this stuff.

.

That is as maybe but when was infallibility a human condition

I have posed the same problem to Rules Officials in the UK and on other sites. I have had many differing answers. As this thread was about the same topic I used the opportunity to seek further opinions. My responses to Gary reflect the points that other people had made to me. I am not suggesting Gary is wrong. His response agrees with some but not all others I have had.
The basic problem is -
Our paths are surfaced with either tarmac or gravel.
If they are declared to be an integral part of the course no free relief is available. Players may damage their clubs if they play the ball as it lies but more importantly, flying gravel is dangerous.
If they are immovable obstructions, free relief is available unless the path is on a bridge over (in) a WH.
The committee wish, in equity, to provide the same facility to players regardless of where on a gravelled area there ball lies.

[Gary Hill]

That is as maybe but when was infallibility a human condition

I have posed the same problem to Rules Officials in the UK and on other sites. I have had many differing answers. As this thread was about the same topic I used the opportunity to seek further opinions. My responses to Gary reflect the points that other people had made to me. I am not suggesting Gary is wrong. His response agrees with some but not all others I have had.
The basic problem is -
Our paths are surfaced with either tarmac or gravel.
If they are declared to be an integral part of the course no free relief is available. Players may damage their clubs if they play the ball as it lies but more importantly, flying gravel is dangerous.
If they are immovable obstructions, free relief is available unless the path is on a bridge over (in) a WH.
The committee wish, in equity, to provide the same facility to players regardless of where on a gravelled area there ball lies.

This is all very well and good. I agree that an artificially surfaced path (no matter what type of surface) is an obstruction. The famous "Road Hole" at St. Andrews is a perfect example of a road being declared an integral part of the course from which no free relief is available.

However, this thread has NOTHING to do with types of surface on roads and paths.
We are specifically talking about bridges over water hazards.
It is irrelevant what type of artificial surface is on the bridge.

A bridge by definition has an artificial surface and it is immovable. Therefore, it is an immovable obstruction.

If the bridge is within the margins of the water hazard, then it is IN the water hazard by definition.

Rule 24-2b Note 1 says: If a ball is in a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard), the player may not take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction. The player must play the ball as it lies or proceed under Rule 26-1.

I can't make it more clear than that.

There is no free relief from a ball on a bridge over a water hazard.

[DCH]

I can't make it more clear than that.

As I have said, I understand exactly what you have said but your reading of 'open water course' and its relevance to bridges does not tally with some others I have queried. However, other people agree with you.
I promise to leave it and not take it any further here.

But as an aside, don't get so uptight - relax, play some golf.

[Golfpeasant]

As I have said, I understand exactly what you have said but your reading of 'open water course' and its relevance to bridges does not tally with some others I have queried. However, other people agree with you.
I promise to leave it and not take it any further here.

But as an aside, don't get so uptight - relax, play some golf.

I can understand his frustration. He's here providing valuable information at no profit for himself, and someone is continually ignoring his response.

Are you telling me you hit a ball on a fairway, it comes on top of that "covered pipe" you're talking about, and YOU TAKE RELIEF? If not, and you don't have any course where that rule exists, than why are you asking repeatedly? Which course are you refering to if that course exists?

[spart]

Thank you Gary - clearly the bridge I was referring to (16 at Greenmere) is in the hazard.

[DCH]

For information
Watching the BMW PGA Championship at Wentworth (where the World Match Play is held) on TV just now I noticed that there is a WH in front of the 8th green. It is a largish pond or lake with a gravel path from the fairway to the green bisecting the lake.
On either side of the path at the fairway end were two yellow stakes. At the other end on either side of the path were also two yellow stakes. Running along each side of the path were yellow lines joining the stakes at each end of the path. Passing under the path, at intervals, were at least two, maybe four, conduits linking the water on each side of the path.
This set up suggested to me that the path and 'bridges' passing between the WHs were not part of the hazard(s).
I have since had this confirmed by a member of the Club.

[Gary Hill]

Impossible.

[DCH]

Gary
See photo

[NoBack]

Gary
I have sent a photo by email as I can't work out how to include it in a reply

I'd love to see the pic too, maybe then we could :cleary: understand what you were talking about.

[Kilroy]

Use manage attachments when composing or editing your post and then browse to the pictuire on your harddrive