Define slow play...

[3Jack]

I posted this previously in another thread. Slow play isn't necessarily caused by slow players.

Yes, everyone has to do their part to play ready golf, keep up with the group in front, yaddayaddayadda, but it's the golf courses themselves that are set up to fail.

Not even halfway through your round and you’re hot. Man, are you hot.

Sure, the thermometer is in the upper 20s, but it’s not the summer heat that’s frying you.

It’s the waiting on every shot. Every shot!

Why is that group in front of us so @%#%-ing slow?!”

Cool down. It just might not be their fault. Or the fault of the groups in front of them.

At this year’s Golf Canada annual meeting, attendees were enlightened about the USGA’s research into pace of play by Director of Strategic Projects Hunki Yun and Technical Director Matthew Pringle. You can view their presentation below.

Enlightened, to say the least, because the data indicate that while pace of play is a shared responsibility, much of the blame for slow play may be laid at the feet of course operators."

Here's the link to the full article and the presentation - http://golfcanada.ca/blogs/article/g...esponsibility/

[jmwhite]

I'm sure Kilroy will be here shortly to tell 3Jack he's wrong.

[Marcos]

While you guys argue about this, i"m going out to play!!!! See ya.

[chucky]

Everyone plays golf for different reasons some take it seriously and some just want to have fun, so to me it doesn't come down to a 3 handicap or 30 handicaper,if you want to look for your ball on every hole do it its your money,you want to plumb bob every two footer do it, take all the practice swings you want nothing wrong with that ,don't hit that shot until your ready. Some golfers want to play in a certain time frame I get it,but I agree with Justdoeit if your in the fast lane and someone wants to pass pull over, we all have our own pace.If your a hole behind I don't think it means you can't go through your routine just walk a little faster like someone said play ready golf.What I can't understand is how any golfer just doesn't get it.
PS I have been both of those golfers the one that lets numerous groups through and the guy who screams from the top of his lungs at in at the group in front who are two holes behind.

[Big Johnny69]

@ justdoeit...
The group in front of me has no bearing on my game at all... sorry...
What if I am in a 4some and they are a 2some?
What if they are scratch golfers and we shoot in the 100s?
What if they are not really putting out and we count and take every shot?
What if they are 3 with carts and we are all walking?

There are a number of people who are actually in a HURRY to get their round done, and that should not be my problem.

Your comparison to speed limits and cars is not valid, because most golf courses do not have a posted "speed limit" or "pace of play".

You are probably that "jerk" who thinks that because you play in 3.5 hrs that everyone else should... Too bad for you...

So what will ruin your round more, letting one or two groups play through or have one group constantly yelling from behind to hurry up, regardless of your pace? Just curious....

[John]

It can be tough for most fore somes to keep up with any twosome, what it comes down to is that if you have any open space in front of you and your group is making the groups behind you wait then have some common courtesy/etiquette speed up your play and don't hold people up.

[Big Johnny69]

It can be tough for most fore somes to keep up with any twosome, what it comes down to is that if you have any open space in front of you and your group is making the groups behind you wait then have some common courtesy/etiquette speed up your play and don't hold people up.

This^^

[golfisforfun]

So what will ruin your round more, letting one or two groups play through or have one group constantly yelling from behind to hurry up, regardless of your pace? Just curious....

If my group is playing at a good pace, then a group behind me yelling doesn't bother me at all...

[Wknd_Warrior]

My understanding is the new current "rule" is if you have open space ahead of you you are suppose to let waiting groups behind you play through.

Aggravated speed golfers get on my nerves pretty quick though, as do twosomes that think they are supposed to play through just because after 9 holes of waiting, for the first time all day, at the turn, you've finally got 1/2 a hole open in front of you.

[golfisforfun]

And don't get me wrong, I will often let groups play through... if and only if there is more than an entire empty hole ahead of my group... And not a Par 3... I mean an entire Par 4 at least... I want the group ahead of me already teed off on the hole ahead of my group...

[Johnyc]

I still believe that players themselves are one of the primary drivers for slow play. No greater evidence exists than reading this thread. When a group behind is clearly quicker than our group, we let them through. It's called etiquette. They enjoy their day and we enjoy ours. I suppose one of the issues is that everyone is at a different stage in their lifecycle. Folks with young families like myself try to hit the first tee so that we can finish in under 4 hours. Again, maybe it's just me, but my best scores this year are all rounds in the 3:15 to 3:45 range. Trying to grind (I'm not very good) for 4:30 to 5:00 hours and longer in the hot sun doesn't work for me. Better players can make it work and aren't effected when waiting for 15 min on the tee, but it throws me off. I like a steady, consistent pace. Not running, but fluid. If I can't play in 4 hours or less than I reschedule. Other folks might be retired or simply enjoy a slower pace. That's cool too. Truth is, there's room for everyone so long as we extend a simple courtesy to each other. The advantage of private golf is the consistency. I pretty much know how long a round will take before I tee off. Unfortunately, on public tracks you don't know until it's too late.

[Big Johnny69]

If my group is playing at a good pace, then a group behind me yelling doesn't bother me at all...

And don't get me wrong, I will often let groups play through... if and only if there is more than an entire empty hole ahead of my group... And not a Par 3... I mean an entire Par 4 at least... I want the group ahead of me already teed off on the hole ahead of my group...

So its not a matter of etiquette, but more so a matter of principal or sense of entitlement?

[NoBack]

If my group is playing at a good pace, then a group behind me yelling doesn't bother me at all...

4 hrs for a round of golf is a GOOD pace - what is that "good pace" for you?

[3Jack]

It's interesting how everyone likes to share anecdotal evidence about their slow play experiences, but when evidence from a USGA study is presented, the forum's response is minor.

Many of us poo-poo such studies because it comes from a governing body -- they're easy to demonize. They did, and continue to devote significant professional time to the issue and have taken a rigorous scientific approach to analyzing a holistic set of data.

Yes, play ready golf. Yes, keep up with the group in front. Yes, let faster groups play through if you're consistently losing ground to the group in front of you. It's not manhood issue, it's common sense and courteous.

But we should acknowledge that course operators can have a big impact on slow play by working to make hard holes play more quickly, and while at the same time, slow groups down on the easy holes to even out the pace of play.

[ladygolfer13]

The course that I play has the 15 min rule per hole. So would be 4.5 hours and yes the Marsals at that course abide by that rule and if you are slowing up play and there is an open hole in front of you, you are requested to pick up your ball the go to next hole. Most people abide by that, but you will get the jerks that threaten the marsal and they paid there money and can take as long as they want. I do know a marsal that was physically threatened and was told he would be "lucky if he leaves alive".
Yes there are golfers that want finish in just over 3 hours. I enjoy my day out. If takes me 4.5 hours I'm fine with that.
I'm not a horrible golfer maybe shoot 90-100.

[jvincent]

It's interesting how everyone likes to share anecdotal evidence about their slow play experiences, but when evidence from a USGA study is presented, the forum's response is minor.

Until the USGA can maintain the pace of play in their championships, they can't offer any advice to the general public.

Yes, the US Open is a tough tournament. But it's the best golfers in the world, playing as twosomes, with enough spectators, spotters, and on course officials that they almost never have to look for a golf ball.

Their advice about setup of holes to make some easier and others harder is ridiculous. I've seen good golfers butcher an easy hole and vice-versa. The general golfing public is not consistent enough for minor setup changes to materially affect the pace of play.

Slow play is on the players, period.

[3Jack]

Until the USGA can maintain the pace of play in their championships, they can't offer any advice to the general public.

Yes, the US Open is a tough tournament. But it's the best golfers in the world, playing as twosomes, with enough spectators, spotters, and on course officials that they almost never have to look for a golf ball.

Their advice about setup of holes to make some easier and others harder is ridiculous. I've seen good golfers butcher an easy hole and vice-versa. The general golfing public is not consistent enough for minor setup changes to materially affect the pace of play.

Slow play is on the players, period.

I agree, they do not provide a shining pace of play example in their biggest event.

Despite the optics, we should not discount the research and be more open-minded. The point is not about butchering easy holes and playing well on hard holes on a pick-and-choose basis.

Hard holes are still going to be hard holes. But if you can save a couple of minutes here and there by lowering the rough / clearing brush to make it easier to find and advance your ball, why shouldn't it be done?

Again, the study isn't saying not to play ready golf, keep up with the group in front etc. It's saying that in addition to this, operators can make tweaks to help optimize pace of play.

[jvincent]

But if you can save a couple of minutes here and there by lowering the rough / clearing brush to make it easier to find and advance your ball, why shouldn't it be done?

And even if you do this, it's not going to make a single bit of difference.

The slow guys are still going to take forever looking for their golf balls, people behind them be damned. The fast guys are going to take a quick look, and move on.

[3Jack]

And even if you do this, it's not going to make a single bit of difference.

The slow guys are still going to take forever looking for their golf balls, people behind them be damned. The fast guys are going to take a quick look, and move on.

The point of lowering rough / clearing areas where balls tend to be 'lost' is to expedite searches. I'm not sure how, unless slow players are also blind, that they'd not benefit from such measures.

We shall agree to disagree.

[jeffc]

Until the USGA can maintain the pace of play in their championships, they can't offer any advice to the general public.

Yes, the US Open is a tough tournament. But it's the best golfers in the world, playing as twosomes, with enough spectators, spotters, and on course officials that they almost never have to look for a golf ball.

Their advice about setup of holes to make some easier and others harder is ridiculous. I've seen good golfers butcher an easy hole and vice-versa. The general golfing public is not consistent enough for minor setup changes to materially affect the pace of play.

Slow play is on the players, period.

I'm surprised by this. We all know on certain courses where the back-ups are regularly. Yes, some players are just plain slow but some holes are just plain hard or require more shots or just have more trouble. Those will take longer to play. Difficult opening holes cause problems right off the bat. Tough holes make slow players slower. Yes, we've all butchered easy holes and done well on tough holes, but if you analysed on a broad basis the time it takes to play a tough hole, on average it will take longer.

Lower rough also helps. If I only have to look for may ball a couple of times in the rough (or trees or whatever) vs having to do it 20 times, there is no doubt it will take less time to play. Course design can also play a big role in pace of play (think walks between holes). Every little bit helps speed things up.

[HoganWoods]

All you have to do is read the above posts to realize that some people believe that even with empty holes ahead, that they can decide if the pace is fast enough regardless of how many groups are up their rear end. If you put just a few of these people on the course at any given time, game over. They are indeed the same folks going 'fast enough' in the left lane and refusing to move even though it takes 3 secs to move out of the way and back.

[justsomeguy]

Until the USGA can maintain the pace of play in their championships, they can't offer any advice to the general public.

Yes, the US Open is a tough tournament. But it's the best golfers in the world, playing as twosomes, with enough spectators, spotters, and on course officials that they almost never have to look for a golf ball.

The reasons for slow play in professional golf are totally different than the general golfing public. Although there are a few slow players, pace of play issues in professional golf generally comes down to three factors:

1) Obtaining yardages for club selection - there are no rangefinders, no yardage stakes, no GPS and no red/white/blue flags in professional golf. Every shot requires at least a brief discussion between player and caddie regarding club selection and pin locations. Some pro tours are now allowing rangefinders to improve pace of play, but the PGA is not.

2) Reading greens - there are no gimmies in professional golf (except for match play of course). Professional golfers mark, lift, clean and replace every golf ball on the green for virtually every putt. They and their caddies usually try to read every putt outside of 3 feet from several different angles and often spend some time discussing it. The general golfing public spends a lot less time on the greens even when they 4-putt.

3) Rulings - professional golfers get rulings from rules officials if they are unsure of the procedure, and take the time to do measurements for drops. Imagine how slow some regular golfers would be if they didn't say "I'll just drop one" in a favourable spot and move on.

All that being said, professional golfers can still be put "on the clock" by tournament officials. The tours never release information about player discipline, but I suspect that serial offenders can be fined. Don't see that ever happening at my club.

Slow play is on the players, period.

I would say it is on the players mostly, but there is still a lot more that courses could do. Starting with realistic tee time intervals, especially for busy times.

[jeffc]

The reasons for slow play in professional golf are totally different than the general golfing public. Although there are a few slow players, pace of play issues in professional golf generally comes down to three factors:

1) Obtaining yardages for club selection - there are no rangefinders, no yardage stakes, no GPS and no red/white/blue flags in professional golf. Every shot requires at least a brief discussion between player and caddie regarding club selection and pin locations. Some pro tours are now allowing rangefinders to improve pace of play, but the PGA is not.

2) Reading greens - there are no gimmies in professional golf (except for match play of course). Professional golfers mark, lift, clean and replace every golf ball on the green for virtually every putt. They and their caddies usually try to read every putt outside of 3 feet from several different angles and often spend some time discussing it. The general golfing public spends a lot less time on the greens even when they 4-putt.

3) Rulings - professional golfers get rulings from rules officials if they are unsure of the procedure, and take the time to do measurements for drops. Imagine how slow some regular golfers would be if they didn't say "I'll just drop one" in a favourable spot and move on.

All that being said, professional golfers can still be put "on the clock" by tournament officials. The tours never release information about player discipline, but I suspect that serial offenders can be fined. Don't see that ever happening at my club.

I would say it is on the players mostly, but there is still a lot more that courses could do. Starting with realistic tee time intervals, especially for busy times.

you forgot that they are playing for millions of dollars as well. One or two shots can mean a lot of cash out of their pockets. I'm not. But if I was (wishful thinking I know), I'd be a lot more deliberate about my golf game. That would include cleaning the ball, taking my time on shots, spending the fully alloted time looking for balls, getting rules clarified, putting everything out, etc. I am more deliberate in tourney's and it just takes longer to play.

[chucky]

Hoganwoods I agree 100%. Even if you had 20 min tee times the faster players will still catch up to slower players,the only way to speed up the game is to educate the golfer, just like you don't talk on the tee box or putting green or the many other parts of this game that we all adhere to. Why is it soooo hard for some people not to look around and see whats going on around them. for someone to say I won't let the group behind play through because I like to walk to the tee box and hit right away but yet there are x number of groups behind you waiting every single shot great. Thats where the problem is not tee times or the difficulty and lenght of rough on golf courses.Slow players will always be slow players unless they are educated.

[chucky]

Now we are compairing our selfs to the tour players are you kidding me 95% of golfers can't break 80 on a regular basis.Thats like going from your Sunday night hockey beer league to first line centre on any NHL team. That is the difference between reality and perception.We are just playing a game.

[Gobble_It]

Hoganwoods I agree 100%. Even if you had 20 min tee times the faster players will still catch up to slower players,the only way to speed up the game is to educate the golfer, just like you don't talk on the tee box or putting green or the many other parts of this game that we all adhere to. Why is it soooo hard for some people not to look around and see whats going on around them. for someone to say I won't let the group behind play through because I like to walk to the tee box and hit right away but yet there are x number of groups behind you waiting every single shot great. Thats where the problem is not tee times or the difficulty and lenght of rough on golf courses.Slow players will always be slow players unless they are educated.

I'm fine with keeping up to the group ahead but the analogy of fast lane is ridiculous

Example is today at Chateau Cartier. Tee off at 9:00am as 2-some walking. There was 3-some (older gentlemen) walking ahead of us, another 3-some (2 women and a man) walking behind us and a 2-some riding (father and son) behinds them.

We caught up to the 3-some ahead after about 3 holes..from then on we were waiting pretty much 3-4 minutes per hole the rest of the way..but I realized that they were not slow at all even though there is no one ahead... we had no qualm about waiting so we didn't bother pushing them to play through.

The 2-some which passed the 3-some behind us came up and started yelling at us AND through us to the 3-some ahead. We told them to be quiet or go home. They must have called the clubhouse as the marshal came by and stood behind our tail..not the 3-some ahead ..how nice. He took off realizing it's not us

So whose fault is it ?.. 3-some ahead of us ? Should they wave us through..they didn't or we never bother ? The tee sheet that has two-some behind the 3-some, 4-some will almost always experience this log jam..I think this is the problem with the course and not the players.

The 3-some ahead of us is playing their pace ..not terrible slow at all. They are older and I can see that they were trying hard to push along. We are 2-some and it just happened that today we played a bit better golf and caught up. Trust me my partner is a slow player..I meant slow...yet we finished our round ~3.5 hours or so.

I realize that this might not be fast enough for a 2-some but I can't fault the group ahead. They finished their round pretty much the same time 3.5hrs for 3-some hence they were not slow at all in my opinion.

As for the father & son riding, we looked back at them for a few holes while waiting and I'm sure they were just out there for fresh air and not golf.. The kid couldn't even get the ball of the ground. I wonder why the heck did they play so fast and get frustrated waiting..it's not Indy 500 golf in the fast lane.

[justdoeit]

easy.... you should've joined up with them when they caught up

[golfisforfun]

4 hrs for a round of golf is a GOOD pace - what is that "good pace" for you?

With my usual foursome, we are very comfortable with 4-4.5 hr rounds... We are not in a rush, we are not trying to squeeze in a quick 18, we enjoy a nice time on the course, not slow, not fast...

[dmartin]

Sorry Guys (generic)

If the problem was serious enough for the courses they'd do something about it.
Incessant whining on this site doesn't do a thing unless we don't open our wallets.

In support of those who play in 4:15 (walking I assume) your round would be well over 5
if you let all these groups through. Personally I think anything less than a foursome should have no rights
unless the course is nearly empty. or the group ahead is playing over the suggested reasonable maximum...Period.

Keep those blood pressures down !!

[golfisforfun]

Here is a recent example of what a local course expect as pace of play...
This course has 3 9s, and we teed off on Course 1 at 9am. There were only 3 of us and we got to the 1st hole of our back 9, Course 2, at 10:50. We figured we would keep on our good pace, but instead we found 2 foursomes waiting to tee off for their FIRST 9.
We were not thrilled about the 25 minute wait that we were now facing, and when asked for an explanation by the pro shop/starter, we were told that they expected us to be ready to start our 2nd 9 at 11:15 or so, not 10:50. They routinely book tee times based on 2h15 9s and they figured they had room for a few other foursomes before out 10th hole.

So what would you do in this case? Do you think you should be moved ahead of these other golfers?