Define slow play...

[jvincent]

The problem you get is that not everyone plays at the same pace so the course has to set some kind of standard so that they can police the slow pokes.

As an example there are some guys at our course whose sole purpose is to play as fast as possible. Sorry, but that isn't my idea of an enjoyable round. Where you get the problem is the guys that feel they can take as much time as they want. This is where the course has to step in and set a time limit.

Yes, they should also let faster players behind them through if there are open holes, but that typically only happens if a group is slow and if they are on pace then the course management really can't (and shouldn't) do anything.

[justsomeguy]

One of the best things a course can do if slow play is a constant problem is to go to 10-minute or even 15-minute tee time intervals. Fewer golfers on the course at any one time will decrease waiting times.

Course design has an impact too. When you think about it, it is virtually impossible for a foursome to finish a par-3 hole in 8 minutes, so even when pace of play is good there will always some waiting to do when a course is busy. Follow that up with a reachable par-5 or a dogleg par-4 where you can cut the corner and you will have more waiting. Courses should consider these factors when deciding what their tee time intervals should be.

[Gobble_It]

The problem you get is that not everyone plays at the same pace so the course has to set some kind of standard so that they can police the slow pokes.

As an example there are some guys at our course whose sole purpose is to play as fast as possible. Sorry, but that isn't my idea of an enjoyable round. Where you get the problem is the guys that feel they can take as much time as they want. This is where the course has to step in and set a time limit.

Yes, they should also let faster players behind them through if there are open holes, but that typically only happens if a group is slow and if they are on pace then the course management really can't (and shouldn't) do anything.

I haven't yet seen a golf course posting the "standard" time for 18 holes.

Let's say it's 15min / hole allowed or 4.5 hours/18 is the allotted time for a round . I'm fine with however I don't see many courses have tee times spaced out every 15mins..usually 10mins. So when you have players playing under the 15min/hole allowed, should the marshal push them along even there is open hole ahead then ?.

[jvincent]

I haven't yet seen a golf course posting the "standard" time for 18 holes.

Some courses have it on the score card, others use the clocks on the tee boxes, and most don't have anything at all.

The tee time spacing should not impact this once the spacing allows for the players to get to their tee ball and hit their second shot within the allotted time. Our first hole is a reachable par 5 and we have 8 minute spacings. It's never an issue.

[Kilroy]

Lots of courses use tee times spaced at 7 & 8 minutes alternately. This allows 15 min per hole and the course would be at full capacity if fully booked. One group on the green, a group in the fairway, either walking to second shot or waiting for the green to clear, and a group ready to go at the tee. The issue there is that if anyone slows down for any reason it backs up.
10 minute tee times allow for a bit of elbow room.
7 & 8 minutes allows for 8 groups per hour, 10 only allows for 6. With a $50 green fee that adds up to $400 per hour if fully booked (weekends) It's not chump change. It would be better for everyone if golfers would be more aware of when they are slowing down the field.

[jmwhite]

with regards to the $50+ green fees....the courses should keep in mind we paid to play golf...not hang out.

[Kilroy]

Not sure I get your point jmwhite.

It's unfair to blame course management for slow play in general. All the marshals can do is remind people to pick up the pace or kick them off the course which is simply bad for business.
I do agree that design flaws can cause pace issues, but ultimately it's up to us golfers to keep play moving. 15 minutes per hole is plenty. More than you really need.

[jmwhite]

Really...you're having trouble with my point? It's simple really....if I pay top dollar to play a golf course it's up to the course management to ensure the courses isn't backing up....it's up to them to ensure I have a good experience. If the group 3 holes in front of me is holding things up I expect the marshal to get things moving. It's easy to point blame at the other golfers but I have no control over what someone else is doing.

Unfair is charging top dollar for people to be held up at every hole during a 5 1/2 hour round. Who's going to return after that kind of experience.

As a course owner/manger I'd rather kick the one slow group off then lose the business of all the other groups being held up and having a terrible experience because I was too afraid to do something about it.

[jeffc]

Not sure I get your point jmwhite.

It's unfair to blame course management for slow play in general. All the marshals can do is remind people to pick up the pace or kick them off the course which is simply bad for business.
I do agree that design flaws can cause pace issues, but ultimately it's up to us golfers to keep play moving. 15 minutes per hole is plenty. More than you really need.

I'd argue slow play is bad for business.

[Kilroy]

It's not the marshal's fault if a group is slow. While it is the marshals job to motivate slower groups, it's not as simple as it sounds. They cannot FORCE anything. They can ask you to speed up and they can kick you off the course. The latter happens very rarely, and rightly so. How would you feel if a slow player in your group got you kicked off a course? Were YOU treated fairly in that case?

I have seen a lot of posts in here over the years by golfers complaining of being hassled by "overzealous" marshals. They are always overzealous and it's never the golfer's fault when we are the golfers the marshal has words with.

Fellas, just own it. The marshal isn't the cause of slow play - the golfers are.

[Kilroy]

I'd argue slow play is bad for business.

You would think so but I have returned many times to courses where I experienced a slow day and had no trouble at all the next time. As I am trying to say, it's not the course - it's the players on any given day. It can happen anywhere. Going to a course where you have not had a slow day in the past is no guarantee at all.

[jeffc]

It's not the marshal's fault if a group is slow. While it is the marshals job to motivate slower groups, it's not as simple as it sounds. They cannot FORCE anything. They can ask you to speed up and they can kick you off the course. The latter happens very rarely, and rightly so. How would you feel if a slow player in your group got you kicked off a course? Were YOU treated fairly in that case?

I have seen a lot of posts in here over the years by golfers complaining of being hassled by "overzealous" marshals. They are always overzealous and it's never the golfer's fault when we are the golfers the marshal has words with.

Fellas, just own it. The marshal isn't the cause of slow play - the golfers are.

It starts with the players but should end with the marshalls/course. What other recourse is there? I've called the clubhouse before from the course (when there wasn't a marshall around) and there have been times it has actually been addressed and speeded up. The starter can also let it be known that there is a pace of play and if you don't keep up you will be asked to catch up or pick up your ball. If the club is failing to make this know to their golfers then they are not doing their job. You are saying the course managment has no impact. They can and do if done properly.

Not everyone is aware they are slow - just like driving on the highway. Some people are clueless and need to be told.

[dbleber]

So if a course is busy on a weekend and the early morning tee sheet is packed with 4somes, then they send out 8 groups of 2somes that won't contribute to slow play? Slow play is not always about an actual time but rhythm and not having to wait.

First 2some catches up with the 4some, probably on the 2nd hole. They won't let them through because "we'd let you through but it’s packed with 4somes". So by hole 4 you will have a 4some on the green, a 2some in the fairway, 2x2some on the tee box and another 2some leaving the green. If they paired up you'd probably have 1x4some on the green, 1x4some on the tee box and 1x4some on the green of the previous hole. How does that not speed up play or at least congestion and the feeling of slow play?

[Gobble_It]

Lots of courses use tee times spaced at 7 & 8 minutes alternately. This allows 15 min per hole and the course would be at full capacity if fully booked. One group on the green, a group in the fairway, either walking to second shot or waiting for the green to clear, and a group ready to go at the tee. The issue there is that if anyone slows down for any reason it backs up.
10 minute tee times allow for a bit of elbow room.
7 & 8 minutes allows for 8 groups per hour, 10 only allows for 6. With a $50 green fee that adds up to $400 per hour if fully booked (weekends) It's not chump change. It would be better for everyone if golfers would be more aware of when they are slowing down the field.

For a par 5 @500 yard average (white), it probably takes 4-5 minutes of walking (easy walking pace), plus 5-6 swings and then putting.. 7-8 minutes could be tight..

That doesn't take into account the mulligans, penalties shot, ball looking, ball cleaning, divot fixing and beer drinking etc...

4.5 hours is about right for 18 holes but less than that is pushing it for bogey or worse golfers which is a majority on the courses.

[dmartin]

We in the Ottawa area have the luxury of playing a multitude of reasonably priced
Public courses... If where your at is too slow don't go back !! If you don't have the gonads
to insist on playing thru don't go back. If you have the urge to hit a ball over the B#@$%^ds
heads switch sports... That's just stupid !!
Clubs are trying to make a buck.. and many are reducing maintenance costs by redefining fairways so many of us
are discovering last years landing areas are now primary rough... just for example (pineview #8)...

Keeping it in the short stuff was never truer with all the rain we've had..

4 walkers, 2 in their 60's . 2 in their 70's enjoyed playing Anderson Links in 3:45
yesterday teeing off at 12:30.
Parking lot was nearly empty... Yeah for Golf after Labour day !!!

[Kilroy]

You are saying the course managment has no impact. .

No I am not. I am saying they are not to blame for the problem in the first place. My way of trying to make a point. Hoping to get the golfers reading this to look inwardly and not always blame the course management for a problem with those who feel they paid their money and will do as they like.

[jeffc]

No I am not. I am saying they are not to blame for the problem in the first place. My way of trying to make a point. Hoping to get the golfers reading this to look inwardly and not always blame the course management for a problem with those who feel they paid their money and will do as they like.

If the courses are not making every golfer that goes through the course aware of pace of play then they are partly to blame for the problem - same goes with 7-8 min tee times, you are just asking for trouble on a busy day. I'm not sure looking inwardly is going to solve the problem.

[Kilroy]

It's not going to solve the problem, but if a few people get the idea to look at their own way of playing it might help. Most slow players are in denial that they are slow. Then there are a few who just don't care because they paid their money and won't be rushed. I'd love to have a few of those folks change it up for the greater good.

[jeffc]

I'd say most folks who play slow have no clue they are slow. Hence why the course needs to get involved to educate them and from time to time give them a kick in the ass.

It's like the guy driving in the left lane down the highway doing 100 km/h clueless to the fact they are holding up traffic and pissing off everyone behind them.

[Johnyc]

I'd say most folks who play slow have no clue they are slow. Hence why the course needs to get involved to educate them and from time to time give them a kick in the ass.

It's like the guy driving in the left lane down the highway doing 100 km/h clueless to the fact they are holding up traffic and pissing off everyone behind them.

I absolutely agree. Most slow golfers have no clue that they are slow, or frankly don't care. I played with two ladies who were both over the age of 60 last week. We walked all 18 holes and we finished in 3:45. I shot 75, but neither of them broke 120. We didn't run, but we kept moving.

[justsomeguy]

Lots of courses use tee times spaced at 7 & 8 minutes alternately. This allows 15 min per hole and the course would be at full capacity if fully booked. One group on the green, a group in the fairway, either walking to second shot or waiting for the green to clear, and a group ready to go at the tee. The issue there is that if anyone slows down for any reason it backs up.
10 minute tee times allow for a bit of elbow room.
7 & 8 minutes allows for 8 groups per hour, 10 only allows for 6. With a $50 green fee that adds up to $400 per hour if fully booked (weekends) It's not chump change. It would be better for everyone if golfers would be more aware of when they are slowing down the field.

First of all, your "typical" scenario" only works for par-4's and shorter par-5's. The theory is that longer par-5's (where you could actually have 2 groups in the fairway) will balance out the par-3's (where there is nobody in the fairway), to get your average of 15-minutes per hole per foursome. The problem is that most courses do not have that balance built into their course design.

Any course that starts out with a par-3, reachable par-4 or dogleg par-4 where you can cut the corner will be backed up immediately on the first tee if it is booked with foursomes and has 8-minute tee time intervals. Most courses have more of these holes than they have long par-5's where they can make up the difference. That is why you need the "elbow room" from a longer tee time interval if your course is often busy.

Secondly, courses are rarely "fully booked". They are only "fully booked" during certain times - typically weekend mornings. If a 10-minute tee time interval means you might have to tee off 15-30 minutes earlier or later than your preferred time on a busy weekend morning but pace of play would be better, then I suspect that most golfers would accept that.

Here's another way to look at it. If you have 8 foursomes per hour for 4.5 hours, that is 144 golfers for that time period. The one time that a course is truly "fully booked" is for a shotgun tournament. Most courses set aside 5 hours for a shotgun tournament that has a maximum of 144 golfers playing a scramble format (which should have a faster pace of play, all other factors being equal). But somehow even 5 hours is rarely enough time to finish a shotgun tournament. Yes, I know that there are other factors at work in shotgun tournaments that cannot be fixed by using a scramble format, but maybe it is also because courses have unrealistic expectations about pace of play when their course is "fully booked".

Personally, I would like to see more courses have 10-minute tee time intervals during "prime" times (when they charge more anyway), and then switch to 8-minute intervals for the rest of the day. That seems like a reasonable compromise to me.

[golfisforfun]

Here is another issue... Some of you say 4.5 hours is too slow... Well I think 4hrs is too fast and I am not going to let a group play through every few holes just because they want to play in less than 4 hours... That ruins my round! If my group is playing at a 15 minute per hole average, then I should not have to keep letting speedy groups play through...

[Big Johnny69]

Here is another issue... Some of you say 4.5 hours is too slow... Well I think 4hrs is too fast and I am not going to let a group play through every few holes just because they want to play in less than 4 hours... That ruins my round! If my group is playing at a 15 minute per hole average, then I should not have to keep letting speedy groups play through...

I would somewhat agree with you, but if you are playing on a day with few golfers, the courteous thing to do would be to keep letting the faster players through if there is room for them ahead of you. Even if you are playing at a decent pace, refusing to let faster players through makes you the cause of slow play for that time of day. Slow play doesn't need to be measured in actual time, it can be measured in the pace of play for any given moment on the course.

I agree with both Dan and Jeff. Ultimately pace of play falls on the players, but it would be nice if each course, be it in the pro-shop or on the first tee informed each player about pace of play and how the course deals with such issues. It would most likely improve the pace throughout the day.

[golfisforfun]

I would somewhat agree with you, but if you are playing on a day with few golfers, the courteous thing to do would be to keep letting the faster players through if there is room for them ahead of you. Even if you are playing at a decent pace, refusing to let faster players through makes you the cause of slow play for that time of day. Slow play doesn't need to be measured in actual time, it can be measured in the pace of play for any given moment on the course.

I agree with both Dan and Jeff. Ultimately pace of play falls on the players, but it would be nice if each course, be it in the pro-shop or on the first tee informed each player about pace of play and how the course deals with such issues. It would most likely improve the pace throughout the day.

But that's my point... If I am not actually "slow", why should I have to spend my entire round letting FAST groups play through. That ruins my game and enjoyment. Pace of play should not be dictated by the fastest players on the course.

[justdoeit]

You are slow in that instance! If the hole in front is clear, you are expected to let the waiting group through. Golf Etiquette 101.

USGA Etiquette:
"It is a group's responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through. "

You sound like the jerk driving 120 in the Left lane that refuses to move over. Sure, 120 is fast, but if there's a string of cars behind trying to go quicker, you should move over.


Slow play has nothing to do with XX:XX rounds, it's all about waiting for the group in front.

[jeffc]

But that's my point... If I am not actually "slow", why should I have to spend my entire round letting FAST groups play through. That ruins my game and enjoyment. Pace of play should not be dictated by the fastest players on the course.

Because that's the proper thing to do. I doubt you'd be letting people through all day.

[golfisforfun]

@ justdoeit...
The group in front of me has no bearing on my game at all... sorry...
What if I am in a 4some and they are a 2some?
What if they are scratch golfers and we shoot in the 100s?
What if they are not really putting out and we count and take every shot?
What if they are 3 with carts and we are all walking?

There are a number of people who are actually in a HURRY to get their round done, and that should not be my problem.

Your comparison to speed limits and cars is not valid, because most golf courses do not have a posted "speed limit" or "pace of play".

You are probably that "jerk" who thinks that because you play in 3.5 hrs that everyone else should... Too bad for you...

[jeffc]

@ justdoeit...
The group in front of me has no bearing on my game at all... sorry...
What if I am in a 4some and they are a 2some?
What if they are scratch golfers and we shoot in the 100s?
What if they are not really putting out and we count and take every shot?
What if they are 3 with carts and we are all walking?

There are a number of people who are actually in a HURRY to get their round done, and that should not be my problem.

Your comparison to speed limits and cars is not valid, because most golf courses do not have a posted "speed limit" or "pace of play".

You are probably that "jerk" who thinks that because you play in 3.5 hrs that everyone else should... Too bad for you...

Wow. You are the guy in the left lane doing 100.

[justdoeit]

@ justdoeit...
The group in front of me has no bearing on my game at all... sorry...

I think you should read up on your etiquette responsibilities. Because you are most certainly affected by the group in front. You are to keep pace. If you fall behind, no big deal...but if there's a group (a single, 2some, 4some, whatever) behind you waiting, pull over and let them through.

That's the comparison to driving, if there's space to move over and someone behind you, move over! simple. doesn't matter how fast/slow you're going. If there's no one behind you, then play as slow as you like

[justsomeguy]

But that's my point... If I am not actually "slow", why should I have to spend my entire round letting FAST groups play through. That ruins my game and enjoyment. Pace of play should not be dictated by the fastest players on the course.

I've been playing golf for 15 years, mostly as a single that would be paired up on the tee box with all kinds of golfers that could be fast or slow. In all that time I cannot remember ever playing through more that one group in a round, or having more than one group playing through the group that I was in. In most cases the group playing through had fewer golfers.

If you are not actually "slow", then I can't imagine you would ever have to let more than one group play through in a round. As long as it is done right, that is no big deal. If multiple groups are asking you to play through, then you are slow.