Stonebridge Conditions

[Duke]

Anyone played Stonebridge lately?

I have heard that they had problems with their greens. Is this true?

Thanks for the update.

[jvincent]

Conditions are excellent for this time of year.

There are a couple of greens which have bare spots (front of #3 West and front of #8 East) but other than that they are fine.

[g8r]

Like to get some other opinions on Stonebridge...played there yesterday and the course is in great shape (fairways and tee boxes are beautiful)
But, the greens at that course (and pin positions) are EXTREMELY tough and bordering on unfair. It's fun to play on tiered greens but its also nice to be somewhat rewarded for an approach shot that lands on the green. Half the tme you're better off staying just off the green so you can chip it up those tiers.
Pin positions were #1 yesterday and the wind was blistering. (West to East), and seemed like it was in our face almost all day.

For example, 5 East. Back left pin position, wind at your back. That part of the green is only 15 feet deep and slopes towards the back, where your ball will roll into a large grass crater. Bunkers and a hill protect the front. Tour pros would have a hard time stopping it on those greens. They are also very hard and not receptive.
Then next hole, #6 East, par-3, pin placed on the extreme right, so you have to put it up over the bunkers and hope the wind carries it back onto the green (a really tough position with the wind that was blowing). or play a cut into the wind, but those of us without that skill set have no hope on these holes.

There were plenty more examples, it seems that the developers went a bit overboard on their tiered greens and the desire to have pin placements that would challenge top tour pros. Any other comments on these or other green designs and pin placements?

[jvincent]

This comes up all the time. Yes, the greens at Stonebridge can be VERY challenging depending on the pin position and the wind.

Because of the relatively short length, they chose, and I believe rightfully so, to make the greens difficult. A reasonable tradeoff. It's actually not as bad now that they only rotate between three pin positions. When they used four there were some spots on the greens which were truly unfair. Now they are just tough.

Besides, who says every golfer should have a chance at holding the green for every shot? Take #6E for example, nobody says you have to shoot at the back right pin. Hit the middle of the green and take your chances with the long putt.

To paraphrase Tom Meeks at the US Open when it was held at Bethpage, "Who says everyone is supposed to be able to make par?"

I personally enjoy it when they have the pins in challenging spots. Knowing where to miss a green that you can't hold is just as important as being able to hit a large flat pancake.

[mjf]

I'm in agreement with jvincent on this. Stonebridge is a thinking-man's course. There is a lot of strategy involved if you want to score well. Off the tee, you have to be thinking about where you want to put your ball to leave the best angle for your next shot. For approach shots to the greens, you need to try to hit your shot to the appropriate tier of the green and, preferably, leave it below the hole. I can certainly understand how people who have never played the course before could be frustrated, it's not like most courses that people play. I find that most other courses I've played don't really require a lot of thought. As long as you hit your ball on the fairway/green 'somewhere' you'll be fine... that's not the case at Stonebridge. I think once you get to know the course better you'll come to appreciate its intricacies... I know I have.

There are definitely pin positions that are extremely challenging. Back left on #5E is one of them. I agree it's almost impossible to hold that section of the green... especially down-wind. You can either go at the pin and most likely have a challenging chip shot from the collection area, or you can play towards the middle of the green and leave yourself a challenging putt. Remember though... the hole is only 358 yards long from the back tees! You should have a pitching wedge or less into the green...

As for the back right pin position on #6E. It's not that bad. I've made a few birdies when the pin has been there. I had to hit VERY good shots to do it though, which is as it should be. The proper way to play the hole when the pin is back there is just as jvincent described. Play it to the center of the green and 2-putt for par. Maybe you'll get lucky and hole a 20 or 30 footer.

For me, the back right position on #4W was killing me. I'd keep going at that position and more often that not, I'd end up in the front right greenside bunkers. I'm employing a different strategy this year. Play left and take your chances with a pitch and a putt or a long 2-putt.

It's kind of like they describe things on the PGA telecasts. There are "green-light" pin positions that you can go after and try to make birdie, and there are "red-light" positions where you need to be a lot more careful and accept par... even bogey sometimes.

As for the conditions; the fairways, tee boxes and greens are in pretty good shape for the most part. There are sections of a few of the greens that are in need of some assistance... hopefully the superintendant will get around to those shortly.

MJF

[Andru]

I'm in agreement with jvincent on this. Stonebridge is a thinking-man's course. There is a lot of strategy involved if you want to score well. Off the tee, you have to be thinking about where you want to put your ball to leave the best angle for your next shot. For approach shots to the greens, you need to try to hit your shot to the appropriate tier of the green and, preferably, leave it below the hole. I can certainly understand how people who have never played the course before could be frustrated, it's not like most courses that people play. I find that most other courses I've played don't really require a lot of thought. As long as you hit your ball on the fairway/green 'somewhere' you'll be fine... that's not the case at Stonebridge. I think once you get to know the course better you'll come to appreciate its intricacies... I know I have.

You're talking about Stonebridge like it's Augusta National. It's not. It's a short course with some ridiculous greens to protect par. I don't believe the good folks ( and avid golfers) on this forum appreciate being told that they're just not getting it. I can assure you people around here know a good course, when they've played it.

[jvincent]

You're talking about Stonebridge like it's Augusta National. It's not. It's a short course with some ridiculous greens to protect par. I don't believe the good folks ( and avid golfers) on this forum appreciate being told that they're just not getting it. I can assure you people around here know a good course, when they've played it.

I can see this degrading into another "which course is better" quickly, but I'll take my shot.

Everyone has different likes and dislikes in a course. I'm fortunate enough to have played several of the top 100 courses in North America: Pinehurst #2, #4, #8, Spyglass Hill, Spanish Bay, Pasatiempo, Torrey Pines. None of them are perfect, but still rank as some of the best in the world by those "in the know".

If you ever get a chance to play the Pinehurst courses and then play Stonebridge you will have a very strong sense of deja vu.

Why? Well, #2 from the Blues is not very different from SB from the Blacks (Par 72/6800 vs Par 71/6500) with elevated / crowned greens and lots of undulations. #2 has very little water, but #4 and #8 do with similar greens.

Is SB in the same league as Pinehurst? No, but it is arguably a very good course which has a lot in common with #2,#4, and #8.

Personally, I like SB, as do many others. Many people here rave about the Marshes. I hate it. Six monster par 5s to boost the length, and a bunch of so-so par 3's and 4's. Funny thing is, both are on the Citizen Tournament rotation, so presumably somebody thinks they are both tournament worthy.

[Andru]

I can see this degrading into another "which course is better" quickly, but I'll take my shot.

Everyone has different likes and dislikes in a course. I'm fortunate enough to have played several of the top 100 courses in North America: Pinehurst #2, #4, #8, Spyglass Hill, Spanish Bay, Pasatiempo, Torrey Pines. None of them are perfect, but still rank as some of the best in the world by those "in the know".

If you ever get a chance to play the Pinehurst courses and then play Stonebridge you will have a very strong sense of deja vu.

Why? Well, #2 from the Blues is not very different from SB from the Blacks (Par 72/6800 vs Par 71/6500) with elevated / crowned greens and lots of undulations. #2 has very little water, but #4 and #8 do with similar greens.

Is SB in the same league as Pinehurst? No, but it is arguably a very good course which has a lot in common with #2,#4, and #8.

Personally, I like SB, as do many others. Many people here rave about the Marshes. I hate it. Six monster par 5s to boost the length, and a bunch of so-so par 3's and 4's. Funny thing is, both are on the Citizen Tournament rotation, so presumably somebody thinks they are both tournament worthy.

I have no idea how this turned into a pissing contest. That's your imagination.

There's not many options in Ottawa for tournament ready courses.

I've brought a lot people to SB from out of town and only one guy liked it because he got his first hole in one on number two. I didn't bring up Pinehurst you brought it up.

I haven't been so fortunate to play many of the top 100 courses in the world because I only started playing 4 years ago. I have however played many courses in Ontario. And SB falls way way short of the best of the best. It's exactly what I said it was no more no less.

As for the marshes. You're entitled to your opinion. it's a longer SB without the circus greens. Robert Trent Jones and his father managed to protect par with length and well positioned bunkers. Are there undulations? yes. Would they be classified as unfair. I've never heard anyone complain. What differece does it make anyway. What are you so sensitive about? If you like it, keep playing it. I'll go if I have to. Given the choice I'd rather play somewhere else.

[jvincent]

I haven't been so fortunate to play many of the top 100 courses in the world because I only started playing 4 years ago. I have however played many courses in Ontario. And SB falls way way short of the best of the best. It's exactly what I said it was no more no less.

As for the marshes. You're entitled to your opinion. it's a longer SB without the circus greens.

I think you missed the point I was trying to get across.

It's all a matter of opinion. You don't like SB and I do, I'm fine with that. I don't like the Marshes and you do, I'm fine with that too.

The issue I have is that people pronounce one course to be "good" and another to be "bad" strictly based on their own bias.

Case in point, several PGA tour players (can't remember names off the top of my head) have said how much they dislike the Old Course at St. Andrew's and on the same hand others say how great it is. If anyone should know the difference they should so who's right?

[mjf]

Andru,

My apologies if I somehow offended you by stating my opinion about the course at which I have a 'membership' and where I play 2 or 3 times a week. You will note that 'g8r' specifically asked for "some other opinions on Stonebridge" and I was responding to his post. I don't recall at any time stating that the other people on this forum are "not getting it".

Stonebridge isn't a perfect course and it's certainly not for everybody. But I'm an "avid golfer" and I enjoy playing there and I suspect a large number of other people also do since it always seems pretty busy. If you don't enjoy playing there... well... to be honest, I don't care.

By the way, from someone who has played St. Andrews, I'd recommend you avoid it.

MJF

[Andru]

Andru,

My apologies if I somehow offended you by stating my opinion about the course at which I have a 'membership' and where I play 2 or 3 times a week. You will note that 'g8r' specifically asked for "some other opinions on Stonebridge" and I was responding to his post. I don't recall at any time stating that the other people on this forum are "not getting it".

Stonebridge isn't a perfect course and it's certainly not for everybody. But I'm an "avid golfer" and I enjoy playing there and I suspect a large number of other people also do since it always seems pretty busy. If you don't enjoy playing there... well... to be honest, I don't care.

By the way, from someone who has played St. Andrews, I'd recommend you avoid it.

MJF

I'm not offended it's a civilized discussion, but here is what you said.

I'm in agreement with jvincent on this. Stonebridge is a thinking-man's course. There is a lot of strategy involved if you want to score well. Off the tee, you have to be thinking about where you want to put your ball to leave the best angle for your next shot. For approach shots to the greens, you need to try to hit your shot to the appropriate tier of the green and, preferably, leave it below the hole. I can certainly understand how people who have never played the course before could be frustrated, it's not like most courses that people play. I find that most other courses I've played don't really require a lot of thought. As long as you hit your ball on the fairway/green 'somewhere' you'll be fine... that's not the case at Stonebridge. I think once you get to know the course better you'll come to appreciate its intricacies... I know I have.

Maybe you didn't mean to come off so arrogant but read it again. The summary of this paragraph is basically this. People don't enjoy stonebridge because they don't see the course management and shot making involved in playing it. That's the arrogant part of your post. This is indeed NOT the case. People don't like it because the greens are bordering silly. I've played many courses where course management was a must in order to make a birdie or par and they did it without creating ridiculous greens.

Second.

By the way, from someone who has played St. Andrews, I'd recommend you avoid it

I'll take Jack Nicklaus' opinion of St. Andrews over yours any day. He says it's a fantastic test of golf that takes imagination and skill. It's also the home of golf. How you could recommend SB over St. Andrews is well ....... I'm speechless. Maybe you truly believe SB is as good as you think.

[NoBack]

Sorry to go off topic for a second, but can anybody tell me what the actual "conditions" are at Stonebridge???

[mjf]

I'll take Jack Nicklaus' opinion of St. Andrews over yours any day. He says it's a fantastic test of golf that takes imagination and skill. It's also the home of golf. How you could recommend SB over St. Andrews is well ....... I'm speechless. Maybe you truly believe SB is as good as you think.

I guess maybe you're right and people may have misread the tone of my original post... much the same way you misread the sarcasm in my 'St. Andrews' remark. Of course I was NOT stating that Stonebridge was better than St. Andrews. What I was implying by that remark is that St. Andrews is, in some ways, a very gimmicky course as some people feel Stonebridge is. St. Andrews has blind bunkers in the middle of fairways, blind fairways, hitting over buildings, etc. As I recall, a few famous professionals felt that St. Andrews was a dirt track the first time they played only to realize over time what a true test of golf it was. I feel the same way about Stonebridge, the more I play there, the more I like it. But, as I said, Stonebridge isn't for everybody.

Just because YOU think that the greens at Stonebridge are borderline silly doesn't mean everybody else does too! I enjoy the challenge and precision that they require.

MJF

[Andru]

I guess maybe you're right and people may have misread the tone of my original post... much the same way you misread the sarcasm in my 'St. Andrews' remark. Of course I was NOT stating that Stonebridge was better than St. Andrews. What I was implying by that remark is that St. Andrews is, in some ways, a very gimmicky course as some people feel Stonebridge is. St. Andrews has blind bunkers in the middle of fairways, blind fairways, hitting over buildings, etc. As I recall, a few famous professionals felt that St. Andrews was a dirt track the first time they played only to realize over time what a true test of golf it was. I feel the same way about Stonebridge, the more I play there, the more I like it. But, as I said, Stonebridge isn't for everybody.

Just because YOU think that the greens at Stonebridge are borderline silly doesn't mean everybody else does too! I enjoy the challenge and precision that they require.

MJF

haha. I was being a bit of an ***** there I knew what you meant. I guess there's a fat line and everyone draws it where they want to. For the record I think the course is nice I just don't think it has the same imagination as a few others in the area.

I believe if they flattened out the greens a little, moved some of the tee boxes, and placed some bunkers in spots to guard the hole locations they'd have a gem on their hands. Before it's all said and done you'll see a redesign of the greens.

I think the East 1 is a great hole. it has everything. They protected par with those deep bunkers guarding the flag. I love the fact that you have to challenge the bunkers on the right in order to have a better angle into the green from the tee.

The west 5 fairway needs a set of bunkers on the right side opposite the water then take some of the slope out of the green it's almost 600 yards there's no need to have all those slopes. That's what I mean by imagination. Shot making can happen from the tee as well, it doesn't always have to be the approach into the green.

I tried to be very specific so you wouldn't think I was just shooting my mouth off. I've thought about this quite a bit. I do this at every course I play. I can't help it.

Cheers