Driver Loft

[BC MIST]

Has anyone heards the scholarly TV commentators make the claim that the best spot on a driver club face to maximize distance, is above the center of the face?

Considering that a 10.5* driver is 13* at the top of the face and 8* at the bottom because of the built in roll, I wonder if any of them have come to the conclusion that shots hit near the top of the face go farther because most golfers needs a higher launch angle (more loft)?

[jvincent]

I doubt most of them grasp the physics of why that is the case but at least they're right about the effect.

Of course, this assumes that you aren't talking about a GRT driver from Tom Wishon.

As someone who generally misses low on the clubface, my 515 GRT is a Godsend.

[BC MIST]

Of course, this assumes that you aren't talking about a GRT driver from Tom Wishon. As someone who generally misses low on the clubface, my 515 GRT is a Godsend.

I just knew you were going to say this.

[mberube]

It is maybe cause the face is harder and the ball compresses more. Just a thought!

[byerxa]

I thought it was the gear effect reducing the spin. That is why the pros want to hit it there - high trajectory with less spin. For regular mortals who do not have such spin problems, I imagine a higher loft driver on the sweet spot is still ideal.

Wishon's GRT is cool - balls hit lower on the face will still have a reasonable launch angle without additional backspin (again due to gear effect).

[dbleber]

I have done a bit of reading on this topic since this thread was posted. According to almost every article out there most amatuers are playing with to little loft. Of course they have the charts that will compare swing speeds to lofts and unless you are swinging at 100+ mph you should be using a 10° loft and up. The shaft and your swing characteristics are other factors but I was surprised to see that more loft can actaully give you more distance, I always thought the lower you could hit the better. Another article I found was on shaft length and how a shorter shaft(within reason) can also add more distance since you will be hitting the sweet spot more. 1/2" off center = 7% loss of distance and 1" = 14%, now with a shorter driver you will have better odds of hitting the sweet spot and with a higher loft you will have more back spin and a better launch angle all of this is supposed to equal more distance and accuracy. Honestly all of this makes my head spin! I guess most of us should get on a launch monitor using different lofts, shafts and lengths and see what is best before just going out and buying what we think is right for our game.
Denny

[jvincent]

I guess most of us should get on a launch monitor using different lofts, shafts and lengths and see what is best before just going out and buying what we think is right for our game.
Denny

As someone who likes to fiddle with different driver head / shaft combos it's surprising how much difference they can make.

That being said, the number one, trumps all variables, deciding factor in how far you hit your driver is the quality the swing you put on it. No amount of technology is going to help you if with a nasty, over the top, closed face, flying elbow, snap hook. Trust me, I know.

But when you put your best PGA Tour style swing into the ball, it certainly does go far if you've got the right shaft / loft combo.

[mberube]

As someone who likes to fiddle with different driver head / shaft combos it's surprising how much difference they can make.

That being said, the number one, trumps all variables, deciding factor in how far you hit your driver is the quality the swing you put on it. No amount of technology is going to help you if with a nasty, over the top, closed face, flying elbow, snap hook. Trust me, I know.

But when you put your best PGA Tour style swing into the ball, it certainly does go far if you've got the right shaft / loft combo.

Exactly, The more consistent you are the more technology will help you.

[dbleber]

While it is pretty obvious that if you have the perfect swing you could smash it 300 staright with an old hickory, but the big advantage of the new technology is that you do not have to swing like a pro to get some good distance. There are great shafts, heads and weight placement to help those you do not have the perfect swing still get great results. Now if your right out to lunch like Barkley then not even the slingshots will get you down range but if your just a little bit off then technology can be that extra to make things right.
Denny

[mberube]

It will help the better average golfer but if you are not consistent at all the launch monitor won’t make a big difference. A golfer will hit different drivers and different balls on the launch monitor to find the perfect match. This will give him the perfect launch angle and spin rate but a 20+ HDCP golfer will not hit at the same launch angle and spin rate more the 50% of the time.

[dbleber]

Like I said it is obvious that your swing is the true deciding factor and if you cannot repeat your swing then how will you know which equipment is better then the next since each time you grab a club its a different swing, therefore an unknow variable. That being said the articles that I was refering to were using pro quality players - good amatuers to determine the benefits of more loft and even shorter shafts. If you have low loft and a long driver, but you miss the sweet spot 80% of the time only by 1/2" it's 7% loss right off the bat. Not to mention the less back spin from the lower lofts.
I am no expert on this stuff by any means but find it interesting that most things the average players thinks is better, like low lofts, really stiff shafts and longer drivers are really wrong for most golfers.
Denny

[mberube]

Low ball flight was the way to go 10 years back. Today’s balls are made to fly high and stay up there. I don’t know if you noticed but the tour players have almost no roll when the ball lands. The total distance is mostly all carry.

I have implemented this theory in may game for quite a while now and it’s the main reason that I am longer then most.

I tee the ball high and well forward in my stance.

Tee it high and let it fly.

[dbleber]

I noticed to that most pros are using lofts in the 9.5-10 range now instead of the 7-9 range.
Times they are a changing.
Denny

[jvincent]

I'm definitely a more loft is better convert.

My most recent driver is a 10 deg. (measured) with a high launch shaft. I get what I'd call a medium trajectory ball flight with this combo.

I'll be assembling my newest one tonight (440cc 515 GRT, 10.75 deg.).

It will be interesting to see which one stays in the bag.

[byerxa]

I swing 100 mph, average trajectory, and anything below 10* is too low for me. My previous TM R510 10.5* with stock M.A.S. 75 stiff shaft was about perfect. I just put together an Ashton MS-5 STD head 10.5* weighted to 203g with an SKFiber LR I stiff untipped at 44". A bit light (C8-C9) and I am hitting it a bit low. I'd probably have been better with a 11-11.5 in this combo, but I am going to put some tape on the back to get the swing weight up a bit and hopefully raise the trajectory some.

However, loft is relative. I was hitting a buddy's Ping Si3 with a stock stiff shaft, and trajectory was nice and high. I turned it over to check the loft expecting to see 10 or 11 and it was 8! Normally an 8 for me would hit an average man in the head at 150 yards!

[jvincent]

byerxa,

Not to say that Ping would outright lie, but there is inherently some tolerance on all driver heads, under the best conditions is +/- 1 degree, so that 8 could be playing to a 9 or higher. Also it could play even higher if you hit it high on the face due to the roll.

I've been getting my driver heads hand picked for loft these days to guarantee that I'm getting a specific number.

[mberube]

The transmission (shaft) is in my opinion THE major influence in trajectory. You can put 10 different shafts on a 10* Ping head and have a variation from very high to very low ball flights.

[jvincent]

The transmission (shaft) is in my opinion THE major influence in trajectory. You can put 10 different shafts on a 10* Ping head and have a variation from very high to very low ball flights.

I sort of agree.

There's a fair amount of discussion on this topic on the Wishon forums and Tom W, who's much better to talk to this than I am certainly, says that the direct contribution to launch angle from a shaft is actually relatively small. Much less than due to the loft of the clubface.

My personal theory on this is that the different bend profiles and feel in shafts affect our swing subtley, manifesting itself as differences in the angle of attack and other things so that the total contribution from the shaft is greater than you would expect based on physics / robot testing.

I am neither an expert nor a robot so I may be entirely full of it on this point but I do know that I like some shafts better than others and get different results with the same head.

[golfin-buddy]

What was the drivers lie angle (black blue red) Ping has a DYNAMIC loft that other companies may not have. If the face is closed it takes off loft, if the lie angle changes, it adds or decresases loft. I remember when the ISI came out, the 8 played as a 10 and the 10 played as 11.5. Check out the Ping web site.

Obviously the shaft has a lot to do with it. Just my 2 cents

[BC MIST]

It so apparent that some of our opinions on the advantage/disadvantage of more driver loft are based on our personal, “in the field,” experience.

The trend/fad is more loft/launch angle + less spin = more distance. If more distance refers to CARRY distance, then I can understand that this is probably true. However, most of us here should not be concerned about carry distance, but by total distance, so in my simple mind that after reasonably carry is achieved, available roll should be factored into the equation, as well.

Tom Wishon’s trajectory software says that at 100 mph, my angle of attack, and so on, that my driver should have a loft of 11 degrees. But, my SMT 455 Deep Bore(Accuflex VS339 Stiff shaft) has a loft of 7 degrees and I can hit the ball over an 75’ tree at 180 yards or 10’ above the ground if need be. At my medium type of swing speed I need to maximize my roll distance and just as likely, so should those with lower swing speeds. Guys in the 110+ ss range can hit it high because they don’t need the roll to get good distance. I have a 9.5 515 GRT Wishon drive with his Interflexx shaft and it goes up like a wedge and falls with little roll well short of the Deep Bore. I guess my point is that while it is easy to trust the numbers from a machine to tell you what is best, the truth is the you should trust your own observations of how the club performs outside, on the course, under real conditions, not in the simulator at GT or elsewhere.

Comments were made about the importance of the shaft and I am starting to come to the conclusion that the shaft is not as important as I once thought. You know, “The shaft is the engine of the club” stuff. I am the engine, not the shaft. The shaft is the transmission of my power(or lack of it) through the shaft to the ball.

Wishon says that the most important contribution of the shaft to the club is TOTAL WEIGHT. Normally, the lighter the total weight, the higher the club head speed is going to be. Secondly, the way in which the shaft bends forward just before impact has a slight, but visible influence on the ball’s launch angle. Lower flex shafts bend forward more than a stiffer flexed shaft. Thirdly, the torque of a graphite shaft has a SLIGHT influence on the accuracy of the shaft and this torque does NOT refer to when the ball contacts the face toward the heel or the toe of the club. Lastly, and this has nothing to do with performance, the shaft has the greatest influence on the FEEL of the shot. The softer the flex of the shaft, the more feel you get. A perfect shot with a too stiff shaft, will feel yucky. Have you noticed that he makes no reference at all, to the flex of the shaft being a contributor of distance?

If you want a good read, get Tom’s new book, “The Search for the Perfect Golf Club.” You will very quickly be able to discern the truth from the marketing BS that we are daily being bombarded with.

[el tigre]

At my medium type of swing speed I need to maximize my roll distance and just as likely, so should those with lower swing speeds. Guys in the 110+ ss range can hit it high because they don’t need the roll to get good distance.

I have found the same thing. My driver SS is closer to 90, which supposedly means I should be hitting a high-launch driver because my trajectory must be too low. Just the opposite is true - I hit everything high, and any driver with more than 10* in loft will barely get me 200 yards. My experiment with a 12* driver was a total failure - I could hit a 6-iron farther!

Comments were made about the importance of the shaft and I am starting to come to the conclusion that the shaft is not as important as I once thought. You know, “The shaft is the engine of the club” stuff. I am the engine, not the shaft. The shaft is the transmission of my power(or lack of it) through the shaft to the ball.

If you are talking about the "importance of the shaft" in terms of having an effect on flight trajectory, then I am coming to the same conclusion. IMHO, not only is clubface loft far more important, but so is the clubhead design. I get a much lower trajectory (and more distance) on my 10* Bangenstein (a clubhead that is noted for playing lower that the stated loft) than I do on my 9* Mellow Yellow, even though the MY is on a "low-launching" tip-stiff, high-kick shaft (TT BiMatrx).

However, I still find that having a shaft flex (or frequency) that is suited to my swing is extremely important in terms of accuracy. Anything too stiff pushes right and anything too soft pulls left. So in that sense the shaft does play an important role in my ball flight. And I guess I shouldn't downplay the importance of how a shaft feels. Some just feel better for me than others, and I know that has a positive effect on the quality of my swing.

[jvincent]

This is a good thread.

As mentioned earlier, I built a new driver this week, which has now seen range and course action.

I agree with BC that numbers do not definitely tell the whole story. You really need to take the whole picture, carry + roll into account and in the end, you'll probably end up with some kind of compromise situation.

In my particular case, I'm keeping the 440cc/10.75* driver in the bag. Why? Well on PERFECT hits, there is not much difference between it an the 360cc/10* driver. They both go far, a good mix of carry and roll, but the 440 is much better on off center hits (no surprise there) and perhaps a little longer since it carries further but on a trajectory that still gets decent roll.

The bigger difference is that I get better response / feedback out of the shaft in the 440cc. That one has an NVS-65-S in it compared to the other one which has an Interflexx Mid-High-S. The two clubs are the same length and SW so the variables are as equal as they can get.

I will mention again that it is important to get a measurement of the loft when doing these comparisons. My 360cc driver is stamped 9.5* but is actually a 10* and the 440cc is stamped 10.5* but is measured to be 10.75*.

[Started2k3]

...SMT 455 Deep Bore...

When I look at pictures of this club online, it appears that this club has no grooves on the clubface. Is this correct?

Sorry about the hijack.

[mberube]

When I look at pictures of this club online, it appears that this club has no grooves on the clubface. Is this correct?

Sorry about the hijack.

Yep! No grooves!

[BC MIST]

When I look at pictures of this club online, it appears that this club has no grooves on the clubface. Is this correct?

Why would you want grooves on a driver? To give the ball backspin?

Perhaps the club face can be made thinner than others with grooves.

Predictably, after 1.5 years with the Deep Bore, a driver with grooves looks strange, particularly if the grooves are in the middle of the face.

[Started2k3]

Having no grooves would minimize the backspin that you could get from your driver.
I havn't given this much thought, yet.

The driver that I have now (cheapo) has a lot of very deep grooves, so I might be getting too much backspin. Most of my drives are very high, but I don't know if that is launch angle or the magnus effect.