TrackMan Use for Sports bar, and set up question

[xdreamgolf]

Hi Everyone,

Lot's going on and hope to get the time to fill everyone in soon... But that's a long post...Even longer than this one turned out...

Question...

As many know Trackman is now fully integrated with E6 and judging by their site, fully after their share of indoor golf... If you have not bee to the site lately check it out. I am not sure the last time I visited, but I can say I would have remembered had it been the way it is now...

The main reason for this post is to address the biggest concern which I have after meeting with a client... I was invited to assist in the a 3-5 simulator project located in a nearly perfect situation... Great bar located on a public course in an area lacking indoor tee times in a big way....Demand is significant and what really excited me is how committed the owner/chef was... When I made him aware of some of the larger obstacles he would face he was all in...Most importantly he understood how important it is to get players up and running on a system they will likely not have a clue how to use.... I have seen all too often a group fumbling around on a simulator I installed for a commercial client... Had I not been there to show them something simple like how to aim, take a drop, take an unplayable, or show them a replay of their 5 iron that only flew 100 yards, which was clearly the computer not and not the branch or shrub the ball hit (very good tool)...

Getting side tracked a bit and hope to have a conversation soon that will help air out the many, many, many little quirks that cause so many indoor golf ventures to fail...
Another story,,,, someday someone will put a little extra addressing what really are little things that make or break a businesses investment....I have a list of some very simple things that would make a huge difference....Here I would love to have a business owner start a commercial thread... Both with experience and also those willing to consider adding sims to their business... I will say this...Indoor golf rarely survives on it's own.... They can make a good thing better, but will never make a bad thing good....

So things at the meeting were going well,then the Trackman reps showed... Knowing this sports bar/restaurant was being run independently of the course, it still was located on a golf course....Doing very well attracting it's own following as well as being the F&B for all of the courses needs... I could see how a TrackMan training/fitting cave would be a great addition.... Mainly because the Pro would love to have a place to be a "pro"(no driving range).... The added value of the Trackman name would increase the chatter about the establishment and allow the word to get out to the right type of "golfer"... The ones who swap their work boots for golf shoes and fill up a sports bar in the middle of winter never flinching at the $40 an hour cost...It's the guys that say "not really" when someone states "so you're a golfer"....

One area will have two sims back to back... Long wide room that sets up well for such... Basically figure two 25 foot long sim bays with a common impact area.. They both have their own impact screen and structure, just back to back.... TrackMan was now selling how wonderful their units work as an indoor golf simulator... My first HUGE concern was having two radar units pointed at each other being used at the same time... They said it is not a problem because they are programmed to only track an object that starts off in front of it... I.E. That's why you can have two next to each other on a driving range, and why they don't pick up other balls from the next stall", they said.

I pushed the issue a bit and I was assured this would not be and issue.... So before I get myself back in the middle of what became a very lively bee hive (restaurant guy thinks doing all his sims with a trackman is the way to go, I do not, and made it clear....

I have a fairly good understanding how TM and other radar units do what they do and just see a number of reasons why pointing them at each other, particularly with only 50ish feet between pointed in a straight line directly at each other,might cause issue... Not to mention possibly setting the record for the largest indoor microwave oven... Hmmm... you could keep food warm between the impact screens if you left a little extra room....

Any TrackMan tech guys following????

Yes it's fine, No f-in way, never tried?

Before I make more waves please pipe in... I don't want to be involved in any way if they move forward and this is an issue....I got into this niche of niches to help business owners and for that matter any sim customer avoid making some very common and expensive mistakes.... The last thing I need is to be associated with a failed venture!!

Which brings up my less than huge concern..... Trackman's integration with E6 appears all fine and dandy, other than a latency issue I also need to address..Shots are delayed a bit before they are shown on the screen...I know this seemed to pop up as an issue with some About Golf systems... The ones I have used did not have a delay and other than the software IMO they are an excellent system and do very well in the sports bar environment...

So how long is the delay?

Trakman's answer was "very little if you have a fast computer".... I did not attempt to have them quantify what a "fast computer was"....Something from NASA?

Will it bother the bread and butter golfer on a Sat night playing with his weekly golf buddies?...

Back to the missing the green.... The reps said the feedback from their clients was that putting on a simulator was so bad it was better not to even have it...

Note- I asked them about their clients... I asked where in the area a client was using TM units in a sports bar type environment...The said they could only think of a total of 0 in their region, because the integration was so new ( 2years ish?) ... So I asked, "what about others in the country?".. I just was hoping to get a reference to speak with.. To see how the run their men's leagues and busy nights.. Between the two of them they came up with 0 more... I guess if you add the 0 local and the 0 nation wide, and all of those 0 where doing very well, you could promote your product using all the success....If each one is making money and providing the entertainment a good indoor golf business can do, hey I would spread the word....It would also appear that none of the 0 TM sims being used were a failure.. So that's good..... If your wondering about the math, I checked it..They gave me exactly 0 examples of how well TM was going to work for my clients...0+0=0 right?




So TM focused on the E6 putting options.. "player enters number", and "computer enters number", oh and also "computers finishes hole within 50 yards of green" (which needs to be set up).. The last is their solution for the rare time an approach misses the green and you need to pull off one of those very, rare short chips... Yes they assured me how rare it was you would need to make a little chip shot TM would not be able to register...It needs a minimum of 12 feet in the air to be sure, and might pick up something with as little as 4-10, maybe... Less than 4 feet in the air and your balls stays right there in the rough just off the green... Unless of course you use their other option... Rather than hold up the hole just hit the ball hard enough to register a shot hope and hope it holds the green. Then you can enter or use the systems number..... Yeah,,, I can see how well that will work... I am sure your buddies in your group will all let you deduct a stroke or two when you insist your chip would have landed in 1 putt range giving you a par save to win the hole. Even if pushes have made that a big money hole...

If it was not for the rare ball you cannot advance to the green.. Using the system generated numbers is fine, and I even use it at times. I don't see how a league would... The reps did mention cutting holes in the floor here and there, that way you could at least use your putter... I have seen that utilized, but generally it's a novelty and during prime time it collects dust and golf bags...The guys that fill in the available tee times early in the am when rates are cut in half and prefer to play in quiet will enjoy real putting...

Do you think missing the green just short is so rare, the occasional "wtf do we do now", is not an issue?....

Thanks in advance....

[goatbarn]

Pointing them at each other I believe is fine so long as the frequency they operate at (labeled on the back stick) are different enough from each other.

I don't know what this amount needs to be, but it was referenced in another forum a long time ago.

Maybe fhann could help, he's a wiz!

[Dax]

Hard to follow all the questions, but note I have an indoor TM set up. I do not run multiple units, but believe TM takes pride in stating that they can have two units dude by side that will not interfere with one another. If this is a real issue and you don't trust the sales guy, just send a note to their technical team as they will let you know if it will work or give examples that they have tested. They will not lead you down the wrong path. Onto putting, just get the TruPutt from Trugolf as it integrates very well. As for short chips, my shortest are about ten feet and they get registered. I would ensure that you have a good amount of length (my thoughts are 9 feet from front of unit and at least 12 feet of ball carry). Also remember balls need to be marked with a metal sticker. Delay from hits is not that bad, I've never timed it, but while there is a delay, it really is not bad. Just watch the video on their website of an install that they did, you will be very impressed.

Hope this helps.

[mthunt]

Trackman is amazing device in the right situations. Simulation isn't one of them. For commercial simulation, I think you'd be better off with something that can't be disturbed. A bar with a $16000 device put on the ground? That would make me nervous. Can't putt. Can't chip. A commercial sim is more geared to guys getting their golf fix when the real thing isn't available. IMHO, people would be more likely to complain about missing functions than they would of accuracy.

[Dax]

Where did you get can't chip? It does have a limit on the short game, but in my sim play I have not ran into it yet. There is a commercial spot here in Calgary that uses TM and they just did the right things to make sure the unit does not get damaged or bumped. Agree you need to do something to protect it. At the end of the day you do need to add on the putting device to get full sim, but for me the practice features of the TM that I can do combined with head measurement info has been even more beneficial. I believe the poster said that the pro could use it for teaching as well thus giving them some more uses. I guess they could also rent it out for combines as well and what about club fitting (I don't think I would be fit for clubs indoors, but others might).

[mthunt]

Dax, I have followed you on your trackman purchase. I considered it myself. Like I said, it's an amazing device but do you really think it's better for running a commercial simulator in a bar than an HD or similar with no visible sensors and ease of use? For practice, nothing co,pares to TM if you have enough space but, as I said, IMO, in that setting, not TM. As for chipping and putting, as the OP stated, don't you agree?

"So TM focused on the E6 putting options.. "player enters number", and "computer enters number", oh and also "computers finishes hole within 50 yards of green" (which needs to be set up).. The last is their solution for the rare time an approach misses the green and you need to pull off one of those very, rare short chips... Yes they assured me how rare it was you would need to make a little chip shot TM would not be able to register...It needs a minimum of 12 feet in the air to be sure, and might pick up something with as little as 4-10, maybe... Less than 4 feet in the air and your balls stays right there in the rough just off the green... Unless of course you use their other option... Rather than hold up the hole just hit the ball hard enough to register a shot hope and hope it holds the green. Then you can enter or use the systems number..... "

[xdreamgolf]

Thanks guys
Yeah sorry for the rambling, I should have waited a day to let some of the frustration settle.

I'll try to keep it to some bullet points.

goatbarn- Not next to each other, directly in front of each other. TrackMan golfer impact screen,impact screen golfer, Trackman. Two sims in a long room... Screen to screen.. They would be about 50' in a straight line pointing directly at each other..I hope the wiz you mentioned catches this post..I would be curious how many different frequencies a unit is capable of, or if one is. It may explain the changes needed in the software to use the unit outside.. Had the reps just said we will ask rather than trying to convince me it was the same as two units next to each other I would have felt better.

mthunt- Yes I agree and hence me bringing this up.. The whole proposal was solely based on adding revenue in the bar.. Space was great, location, and plenty of regular guys who love indoor golf.. I hoped TM being there would help integrate the Pro who works for the course, and open up other possibilities down the road.. TM intentional or not now has the money guy thinking several TM units rather than simulators...I obviously was unable to get my point across...
I think Dax did agree at the end of his note.

Dax-
Yeah I completely agree and would have hoped that the TM guys even after admitting, willingly or not had absolutely no feedback as it relates to this project... This sports bar just happens to be on a golf course, but is being run independently... Successfully even when the course is closed for the long winter.... The bar owner being a golfer has seen how busy the couple of places in the area are that have sims...Tee times are booked two weeks or more out for prime time... He want's to capitalize on the guys mthunt said, "need their golf fix"
Because of TM reps focusing on a three or more unit sale for sims, and my opposition to such a plan, we never were able to discuses doing a TM training center for the Pro and course... Using the TrackMan's incredible status in the fitting/training/practice market to infer their product is just as exceedingly antiquate in the indoor golf entertainment world was very misleading... A tactic I would not have expected from a company who seems to be extraordinarily well respected... A game on your buddies house who somehow was able to obtain a TM is very different than 12 guys showing up for an indoor men's league at your local sports bar... If that bar owner where to ask what would be the best setup for his personal man cave, TM would be at the top of the list... However it would not be for his business...

Chipping on a TM-
Is there a certain cut off where shot's just stop being read? Or does it get spotty at a certain point dependent on the height of the arch.. I have seen guys post that their unit has recorded a 6 yard chip, but I would rather not assume every 18 foot shot will get recorded... Nothing worse than having to change the way you chip, just so you can advance the ball....Even worse if there is an area that no matter what most shots wont read...I have seen the frustration first hand when a guys shot is not being picked up and he is struggling to believe anything that sim does..

[Dax]

I see all of your points and just wanted to stress a couple of things. You can putt in a TM set-up (if This is a sim seT-up, then they would have to go this route to solve the issues the op stated) talthough through an add on device that would sit in the floor. This would be no different than other set ups where the ball needs to be placed in a certain spot. I have not checked yet but will eventually get around to asking TruGolf if I could use the Truputt to read those short chips. This would be helpful I think for chips under ten feet in my view. TM does state it can read chips down to 6 feet. The lowest I get consistently is about ten feet. Thinking about pin placements though, if I miss a green and fringe by say a foot and he fringe is another foot, I'm not sure of how many pins I have seen in sim play that are four feet off of the fringe. Thus, most of my short chips are at least ten feet and I have not had to try something different just yet. I can do some testing on the short chips, but so far not really an issue.

One issue that I do have with the set up though and which I tried to point out in my min requirements is that, you need at least 21 feet (which actually means just under 22 feet) to get something that I think would work well. If you have two feet between the sims for safety, this gives you a total distance of 46 feet which only leaves 4 feet of wiggle room. My thoughts are where would people sit to watch and thus 50 feet might not be enough in this commercial space. If I were to picture a set up, it would be hitting 12 to 13 feet from the screen with the TN sitting in a enclosure 9 to 10 feet behind that could double as bar type counter with seats behind for the players to relax and have a good. The bar would be say two to three feet deep (thus protecting the TM) and then you would need another 5 or six feet for setting (plus maybe more if you want to add couches. Thus I'm thinking 60 feet total length would be what is needed. If you were to call TM and speak to their indoor rep he could really help you think about the space.

As for the sim, I play about two rounds a week. I still get some shots that don't register, but that is because I only have about 21 feet of total length to play with. When I moved things around and had even just a few more feet I got much better results; however, I prefer my original set up and just live with the odd shot getting missed. On the putting front, all I can say is that I am really looking forward to 1.6 as they note this is an area that they have worked on.

On the pricing front, I do agree that $16k is a lot.

I hope this helps, but do recommend calling TM directly as is have found the. To be very helpful and very forthcoming on the units short comings.

[sopp586]

Trackman III = USB version (No Delay)

Trackman IIIe = WiFi, USB (Both 3.5Sec Delay)

Play with E6

[Frans@france]

Each unit comes with his owned (pre-tuned) frequency range (mentioned on the back of the unit). It's that that allows setting them up next to each other. As far as I know ball manufacturers use two machines. On facing the target and the other facing the swing robot allowing to get for the full flight the ball data.

I don't own a MIII only a MII and would never ever use it for sims! no putting, chips or pitch

my 2cents ;-)

[MantisPower]

I have not checked yet but will eventually get around to asking TruGolf if I could use the Truputt to read those short chips. This would be helpful I think for chips under ten feet in my view. TM does state it can read chips down to 6 feet. The lowest I get consistently is about ten feet. Thinking about pin placements though, if I miss a green and fringe by say a foot and he fringe is another foot, I'm not sure of how many pins I have seen in sim play that are four feet off of the fringe. Thus, most of my short chips are at least ten feet and I have not had to try something different just yet. I can do some testing on the short chips, but so far not really an issue.

As for the sim, I play about two rounds a week. I still get some shots that don't register, but that is because I only have about 21 feet of total length to play with. When I moved things around and had even just a few more feet I got much better results; however, I prefer my original set up and just live with the odd shot getting missed. On the putting front, all I can say is that I am really looking forward to 1.6 as they note this is an area that they have worked on.

Thanks for all of the great info in this thread. I too am currently looking to open an indoor "golf entertainment" facility and have been considering the Trackman with E6 as an option and the Trugolf putting board. My bays will be at least 20-22' long and 15' wide so from what I can tell and what I have been told, Trackman should work great. That being said, sounds like Dax was still missing some short shots. Dax can you tell me how your newer setup worked and how often Trackman failed to read your short shots and how short those shots were. Also, can you please let me know your thoughts on the putting board and have you heard from Trugolf regarding the putting board reading your chips. Please Please Please give me an update when you get E6 1.6 up and running. Thank you all for your help.

[Dax]

I'm still waiting to hear back fromTrugolf on the TruPutt and if I can use it for short chips. I might need to test the short chips again though as I am still waiting to get one well I play since last reporting on this. The last time I tried I think it was about a twelve foot chip was the best I could get with my 56 wedge. I will try some more with my new set up to (only problem is that my overhead light stopped working, hope it is just the bulb and not the track). See if it makes any difference. I see that the 1.6 update is finally ready for download on Trugolf's website and will attempt to download tomorrow. Fingers crossed it all works. I will post some pictures and give a review.

[MantisPower]

I'm still waiting to hear back fromTrugolf on the TruPutt and if I can use it for short chips. I might need to test the short chips again though as I am still waiting to get one well I play since last reporting on this. The last time I tried I think it was about a twelve foot chip was the best I could get with my 56 wedge. I will try some more with my new set up to (only problem is that my overhead light stopped working, hope it is just the bulb and not the track). See if it makes any difference. I see that the 1.6 update is finally ready for download on Trugolf's website and will attempt to download tomorrow. Fingers crossed it all works. I will post some pictures and give a review.

Dax,

Hows the new setup and the E6 update? Wanted to let you know that Trackman confirmed a patch is now available for the Trugolf Truputt that will allow you to chip from the Truputt. If you have the patch what are your thoughts when chipping from the Truputt?

[Dax]

Mantis,

Sorry for the delayed response, but I was travelling and not able to access the forum. I will see if I can load up the patch today as I did not know one was available, but if it is, then I'm happy. One thing to point out though is over the course of the winter I only encountered one instance where I was to close to the hole and in the rough, but will take the patch as a just in case.

As for e6, it works very well as a sim and gives you a lot of options with a pretty decent interface. However, even though I much prefer the update over the previous version I do wish they had spent there time on 3d rendering as everything just looks flat. Can't complain too much, but this would have really made a difference in my view especially given the upgrade cost.