Ball in Hazard or Casual Water?

[el tigre]

I played a quick nine at Raceview last night and an interesting rules situation came up (BTW, the course is in great shape and fairly dry considering the weather and time of year). The 2nd hole has a lateral water hazard on both sides of the fairway, but with all the rain we've had the hazard has overflowed its boundaries and extended into parts of the course (on several holes, actually). You can still see the red stakes defining the margins of the hazard sticking out of the water.

My tee shot lands in the water but outside of the margins of the hazard, i.e., on the part of the course that would normally be dry had the water in the hazard not overflowed its boundaries. However, I can't actually see where the ball has ended up in the water.

What is the ruling? Is it:

1) Ball lost in a lateral hazard - proceed under lateral hazard rule
2) Ball lost in casual water - proceed under lost ball rule
3) Ball lost in casual water - free relief

[GarthM]

I believe it is number 1), unfortunately for you.

[Kilroy]

Not really fair, but I think it's 2) Ball lost in casual water - proceed under lost ball rule

If you found it outside the hazard, that' free relief as we know, but if you cannot find it, how can you be sure it's not in the hazzard?

[jvincent]

Gary will chime in I'm sure, but I'm pretty sure it's number 2. Note that it's just a lost ball as there is no "Lost in casual water" rule. Your ball is either in casual water, i.e. you have found it, or it is lost.

If you had found it, you would have proceeded under the normal casual water rule since it was outside the hazard.

[Kilroy]

There is nothing casual about the puddles this week!

[NoBack]

I believe it is number 1), unfortunately for you.

I think this is correct too.

[Colby]

How about if you can identify your ball in the casual water (read lake) But cannot retrieve it...

[jvincent]

Gary will get mad at me for looking at the decisions, but I think the following apply here.

To the original question:
1-4/7: A ball is lost. It is either in a water hazard or in casual water overflowing the hazard. What is the proper procedure?

A: In equity (Rule 1-4), the player must proceed under the water hazard Rule.

To Gary's follow up (and perhaps to the original question if the "reasonable evidence" situation applies:

25-1/1: There is reasonable evidence that a player's ball came to rest in a large puddle of casual water. A ball is visible in the casual water, but the player cannot retrieve it or identify it as his ball without unreasonable effort.

The player abandons the ball and proceeds under Rule 25-1c, which provides relief for a ball lost in casual water. Was the player justified in doing so?

A: Yes. A player is not obliged to use unreasonable effort to retrieve a ball in casual water for identification purposes.

However, if it would not take unreasonable effort to retrieve a ball in casual water, the player must retrieve it. If it turns out to be the player's ball and he elects to take relief, he must proceed under Rule 25-1b(i); otherwise he must proceed under Rule 25-1c(i).

[el tigre]

I believe it is number 1), unfortunately for you.

That's the way I played it. It is still better than #2, which seemed unnecessarily punitive (but then who said that golf was fair).

[Kilroy]

OK, so if you saw the splash, and it was well away from the stakes, but you can't see the ball when you get there, I think that would consitute reasonable evidence. Does that fit the situation Terry?

[el tigre]

OK, so if you saw the splash, and it was well away from the stakes, but you can't see the ball when you get there, I think that would consitute reasonable evidence. Does that fit the situation Terry?

There is reasonable evidence that the "splash" occurred well away from the stakes in the "casual water" part of the course, but I have no evidence at all about where the ball came to rest. IOW, it definately landed in casual water but it could have potentially came to rest in the hazard, in the same way that it could have kicked right and bounced into the hazard had there been no casual water.

[Gary Hill]

I played a quick nine at Raceview last night and an interesting rules situation came up (BTW, the course is in great shape and fairly dry considering the weather and time of year). The 2nd hole has a lateral water hazard on both sides of the fairway, but with all the rain we've had the hazard has overflowed its boundaries and extended into parts of the course (on several holes, actually). You can still see the red stakes defining the margins of the hazard sticking out of the water.

My tee shot lands in the water but outside of the margins of the hazard, i.e., on the part of the course that would normally be dry had the water in the hazard not overflowed its boundaries. However, I can't actually see where the ball has ended up in the water.

What is the ruling? Is it:

1) Ball lost in a lateral hazard - proceed under lateral hazard rule
2) Ball lost in casual water - proceed under lost ball rule
3) Ball lost in casual water - free relief

3) Ball is lost in casual water - free relief

The ball is not immediately recoverable so another ball may be substituted.
You guesstimate the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the casual water.
Your ball is deemed to lie at this spot.
Drop a ball without penalty within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief from this spot. The nearest point of relief must not be in a hazard or on a putting green. When the ball is dropped within one club-length of the nearest point of relief, the ball must first strike a part of the course at a spot that avoids interference by the casual water and is not in a hazard and not on a putting green.

[el tigre]

Thanks Gary. The Rules of Golf are kinder that I thought!

[GarthM]

As jvincent said, Gary will gat mad for looking at the decisions, but decision 1-4/7 does seem to cover the situation correctly.

Gary: Can you explain why it does not in this case? How can a lost ball be free relief?

[Gary Hill]

As jvincent said, Gary will gat mad for looking at the decisions, but decision 1-4/7 does seem to cover the situation correctly.

Gary: Can you explain why it does not in this case? How can a lost ball be free relief?

This is the PERFECT case for a detailed explanation of why I am always pleading with players NOT to jump to the Decisions book. As I have said many times, if you don't understand the Rules, you will not be able to apply the Decisions.

Here is the Decision.
Decision 1-4/7 Ball Lost in Either Water Hazard or Casual Water Overflowing Hazard
Q. A ball is lost. It is either in a water hazard or in casual water overflowing the hazard. What is the proper procedure?
A. In equity (Rule 1-4), the player must proceed under the water hazard Rule.

This decision very specifically addresses the problem of a ball whose status is NOT KNOWN.
This decision CANNOT be used if the ball is in a water hazard.
This decision CANNOT be used if the ball is in casual water.

OK. The first thing we have to do is decide whether or not we know the status of the ball in question.

Originally Posted by el tigre -- "My tee shot lands in the water but outside of the margins of the hazard"

So we KNOW that the ball entered the casual water and not the water hazard.

Decision 1-4/7 no longer can be applied to this situation.

We MUST proceed under Rule 25.

Anytime you try to apply a specific decision to a your situation, you are working backwards.
In order for the decision to apply, you must disprove every other possibility.
This is a long process with many chances for errors.
It is much easier to find the Rule that does apply.
Each Decision is a decision on a specific Rule.
If you can't find the Rule, how could you possibly determine whether or not that decision applies?

Specifically to your question: Originally Posted by GarthM "How can a lost ball be free relief?"

The ball IS NOT LOST under the Rules. el tigre SAW the ball land in fairway. He simply cannot retrieve or play the ball because of the huge casual water.

[Kilroy]

Thanks Gary!
This was a great illustration of rules application. Enlightening for sure.

[oldmaninblack]

and it's a good illustration of how knowing the rules SAVES STROKES.

I mentioned in an early post playing with a good friend of mine who did exactly what el Tigre did. He wouldn't believe me when I said there was no penalty for losing his ball. We all saw the splash in the fairway. The water was deep enough that finding and retrieving the ball was not practical. A free drop within a club length of the nearest point of relief, no closer to the hole would have given him a good chance at birdie, instead he took a double by insisting on "following the rules" and treating it as a lost ball.
I'm going to send him this post :o)

Not to change the topic, but the one "unfair" related situation is when the fairway has dried up enough that there is no casual water visible, but is still soft enough for the ball to plug and be lost in the fairway. Because there is no evidence that the ball is in casual water, although it might be, you must proceed under the lost ball rule. Casual mud, with no water visible, is not casual water (Gary will correct me if I'm wrong)

You could tell the puddles were casual water this week, because they were not wearing ties :o)

[GarthM]

Gary:

Can a ball be lost in an abnormal ground condition such as this and be considered the same as the casual water?

[Gary Hill]

Gary:

Can a ball be lost in an abnormal ground condition such as this and be considered the same as the casual water?

Casual water is an abnormal ground condition.

[GarthM]

Sorry I was referring to oldmaninblack's situation where the ball plugged and could not be found. No obvious water around but you know that you hit the fairway but because of the abnormally soft ground (where you lost your ball 3 days ago when there was casual water) you cannot find your ball. Would this qualify for the same consideration as the casual water?

[Gary Hill]

Sorry I was referring to oldmaninblack's situation where the ball plugged and could not be found. No obvious water around but you know that you hit the fairway but because of the abnormally soft ground (where you lost your ball 3 days ago when there was casual water) you cannot find your ball. Would this qualify for the same consideration as the casual water?

Unfortunately, no. The ball is lost.

[GarthM]

Now that does not seem to be fair.

[Gary Hill]

Now that does not seem to be fair.

Have you ever hit the ball down the middle of a hard fairway on a warm mid-summer day and not found it? I have.

It would be unreasonable to assume that the ball is plugged and therefore I should get some sort of free relief.

On slightly wet ground, the same situation might occur.
On wet ground, the same situation might occur.
On very wet ground, the same situation might occur.

Where would you draw the line in getting free relief?

[Kilroy]

So since water accumulating around my foot depressions defines casual water, that condition must be present where my ball was seen to land but can not be located.

[Gary Hill]

So since water accumulating around my foot depressions defines casual water, that condition must be present where my ball was seen to land but can not be located.

No. You would need much more than that.
The ball has to be reasonable lost in the casual water, not just plugged and buried where it is damp enough to see a film of visible water on the ground.

[Kilroy]

Where would you draw the line in getting free relief?

Hmmm, draw a fuzzy line.
So how much water would need to be present? 1/2 inch, 10 cm?

So rather than the lake that el tigre described, lets say I hit it into a very soggy and puddled fairway. I saw a splash right beside the 150 marker (making it simple) No ball found, but lots of not so casual water, and soggy turf where plugging is a probability. Now what?

I know, Go home, it's too wet to play!

[Gary Hill]

Hmmm, draw a fuzzy line.
So how much water would need to be present? 1/2 inch, 10 cm?

So rather than the lake that el tigre described, lets say I hit it into a very soggy and puddled fairway. I saw a splash right beside the 150 marker (making it simple) No ball found, but lots of not so casual water, and soggy turf where plugging is a probability. Now what?


I know, Go home, it's too wet to play!

Rule 25-1c
It is a question of fact whether a ball lost after having been struck toward an abnormal ground condition is lost in such a condition. In order to treat the ball as lost in the abnormal ground condition, there must be reasonable evidence to that effect. In the absence of such evidence, the ball must be treated as a lost ball and Rule 27 applies.

[GarthM]

So since "reasonable evidence" is not defined in the rulebook, how is one to determine if the ball may or may not be lost in the abnormal condition?

The logic behind this ruling seems tenuous at best. If I hit a shot into a very soft bunker, see the "splash" created by the ball, but cannot find it because the sand is so soft that my ball is embedded and cannot be found, am I also entitled to drop in the bunker with free relief?

The whole "question of fact" opens the ruling to interpretation. While I agree that I have also hit hard, dry fairways and not found the ball, on those occaisons I have also seen the ball bounding either down the fairway, taking an ugly bounce one way or the other and then not finding it. Edgewood rings a bell here.....

If I hit a ball into the middle of a fairway known to be wet and subject to abnormal ground conditions (like at this time of year), and note where it landed yet do not see it bounce, roll or otherwise, much like in the original example with the exception of a "splash", the question of fact remains much the same.

GarthM

["Richard"]

I have a question. My friend is horrible at golf and he uses those floater range balls when he plays so she doesn't lose expensive balls (I told him no range balls but he won't listen) so one day he was playing against another horrible friend of mine and he was up by two shots. He hit a ball and rolled into the water but close enough for us to pull out but this guy wanted to play the ball as soon as he saw that it was floating about 2 feet from land so since the water wasn't that deep (about a foot) he walked into th water, hit it like a sand shot and the ball just came right out about 30 feet from the green. He asked me if what he did was legal and I said, I'm sure the ball you used was illegal so its pointless to have this convo but said he is sure you are allowed to go into the water and play your ball if you can. Are you even allowed to use a range ball on a course? Why do they say you cant? what is wrong with a range ball?

[Gary Hill]

So since "reasonable evidence" is not defined in the rulebook, how is one to determine if the ball may or may not be lost in the abnormal condition?

Reasonable evidence is PURPOSELY not defined in the Rules.

The term "reasonable evidence" is purposely and necessarily broad so as to permit sensible judgments to be reached on the basis of all the relevant circumstances of particular cases.

Therefore, I can only give you examples.

You hit a shot straight over the flag but also over the back of the green.
Upon arriving at the back of the green, you see that from the fringe going out 1000 yards in all directions is ground under repair. You cannot find your ball. It is reasonable to assume your ball is lost in the ground under repair.

On the other hand, upon arriving at the back of the green, you see that from the fringe going out 1000 yards in all directions is waist high fesque. There is also a 1 square yard area where the Greenkeeper has dug up a sprinkler valve. You cannot find your ball. It is clearly unreasonable to assume your ball is lost in the ground under repair.

These are two extreme examples, but somewhere in the middle a sensible judgement has to be made. Thats why there is ALWAYS a Committee in charge of the golf course to make final decisions.

If I hit a shot into a very soft bunker, see the "splash" created by the ball, but cannot find it because the sand is so soft that my ball is embedded and cannot be found, am I also entitled to drop in the bunker with free relief?

No. Your ball is lost. However, in a bunker, you are allowed to dig around for it in the sand.

If I hit a ball into the middle of a fairway known to be wet and subject to abnormal ground conditions (like at this time of year), and note where it landed yet do not see it bounce, roll or otherwise, much like in the original example with the exception of a "splash", the question of fact remains much the same.GarthM

You are missing the basic difference between "lost" and "unable to find or retrieve the ball because of the size/depth of the casual water".

If you lose a ball a bunker, out of bounds, or in the woods. It is lost. If you hit the same shot next week, it would still be lost.

If you hit a ball into casual water and cannot find/retrieve it, it is not "really" lost. It is just not immediately recoverable. If you hit the same shot next week, you may have a perfect lie. That is the rational for the casual water relief.

Casual water by definition is temporary.
Out of bounds, bunkers, water hazards, and woods are permanent.